345: How To Persevere When You Want To Quit With Steve And Toni

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You’re listening to the My Wife Could Her Job podcast, where I bring on successful entrepreneurs and dig deep into what strategies they use to grow their businesses. Now today is another special episode where I share with you a glimpse into the inner workings of my psyche. Now, as you may or may not know, I recently launched another podcast with my business partner, Tony, called the Profitable Audience Podcast. And in this podcast, both Tony and I leverage our experiences with blogging, running events, list building, YouTube, podcasting, membership sites, digital products, in order to teach you how to build.

00:28
and monetize your audience. Now, what I like about profitable audience is I don’t really care what I say. I’m unconstrained and I have the opportunity to truly express what’s on my mind. So if you’re interested in starting your own online business, then please subscribe to the Profitable Audience podcast and leave a review. Now, in this episode, I share my techniques on how to suck it up and not quit when the going gets tough. But before we begin, I want to thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode. Postscript is my SMS or text messaging provider that I use for e-commerce.

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and it’s crushing it for me. I never thought that people would want marketing text messages, but it works. In fact, my tiny SMS list is performing on par with my email list, which is easily 10x bigger. Anyway, Postscript specializes in text message marketing for e-commerce, and you can segment your audience just like email. It’s an inexpensive solution, converts like crazy, and you can try it for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-R-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. I also want to thank Clearview, who’s also a sponsor of the show.

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it’s time to take back control of the customer experience with email and SMS. So if you’re ready to drive future sales and higher customer lifetime value with a marketing platform built for your long-term growth, get a free trial at claviyo.com slash my wife. That’s K-L-A-B-I-Y-O dot com slash my wife. Now onto the show. Welcome to the Profitable Audience Podcast where we teach you how to build and monetize your audience. Now today we’re going to talk about times when things got really tough for our businesses and when we both wanted to give up.

02:23
And we’re also going to talk about ways to kind of push through the suck. So Tony, have you ever wanted to give up actually? Have you ever wanted to give up? That’s the more important question. To be honest with you, I don’t for the businesses that have worked for me, like the e-commerce and the blog, I don’t feel like I’ve ever wanted to give up because I kind of told myself that I was just going to do it indefinitely because it was so inexpensive. Well, when I brought this topic up to you the other day, you laughed at me.

02:51
and said, I don’t think I have anything to talk about on this. So is this just gonna be me filling up 40 minutes? That’s my question. The quitter, is the quitter gonna talk for 40 minutes? Can we get racial here a little bit? Oh gosh, you always do. I think, and I’m generalizing here just so if anyone’s listening, but I think Asians are brought up to be forced into do a lot of things that they don’t wanna be doing. So for example, I was forced into studying for the SATs.

03:19
when I was, I think I started in fourth grade and all the kids were outside playing. What? Fourth All the kids were outside playing and then I was sitting there studying for the SATs. I didn’t want to do it, but then my dad was like, okay, well you have to do this. And we’re just used to being forced to do things that we don’t want to do. So we’re just, okay, we’re just going to do this. Yeah.

03:44
What’s that? I can remember the Saturday before the SATs, I had to give up water skiing for the weekend so that I could study. That’s my experience. So yes, I totally can relate to you. Well, those are my weekends as a kid, right? Basically. And so I’m just kind of used to doing things that I don’t necessarily want to do sometimes for an extended period, even if it’s bad.

04:12
Well, I that sounds terrible, doesn’t it? Now that we’re recording this now that this is now forever on the internet. I mean the math team too, right? I didn’t want to join the fricking math team. This is going to be like a therapy session for me. Another therapy session for Steve. should have changed the name of this. So I think I want to like clarify a few things first. I think there’s, there’s two different, let’s just consider tough times. There’s when things get tough because things aren’t working or because you don’t want to do them. And then there’s also

04:40
when things get tough because of like circumstances outside your control. So I think we should talk about both of those in this podcast because I think there’s sort of two different ways to approach those. I mean, I think they’re related in a way, right? When things get tough, that means mentally you might not want to do it anymore. Right, absolutely. Right. Okay. Well, okay. Well, let’s start with you. Okay. So when did things get tough for your business? Which business, first of all, when did things get tough and did you ever want to give up yourself?

05:10
Did I ever want to give up? So I think things get tough. It’s like an ebb and flow. I was actually talking to a friend about this a while back and I said, being an entrepreneur is amazing and it’s also sucky because you either are like really high highs and you have low lows. So your high highs are when…

05:31
everything’s working. You’re getting great traffic. Your conversion rates are up. People are opening your emails. People are complimenting you. You’re getting great feedback on social media. And we kind of live and die by all of that. But then there’s these sucky times where Google doesn’t update. I remember I had the update, what was it, two or three years ago, where my site traffic dropped by like 60 % overnight. That sucks. mean, there’s just nothing. There’s nothing good about that. Or you get a really negative comment or an email.

06:00
Or you publish something that you think is amazing and then people give you feedback that you don’t appreciate. Or maybe you go give a talk and it wasn’t well received or as well received as you thought it would be or people didn’t get you. So I think that’s the hard part about being an entrepreneur is you sort of ride this roller coaster of emotions on when things are working and when things aren’t. Or we spend four hours trying to get your microphone to work before recording. Right. Those are some of low points.

06:26
Okay, and those are the times that actually the most most of the time when I want to give up when things don’t work is when I want to give up. You know what’s funny about that is when things don’t work from a technical perspective, that actually makes me a little excited. So I’m in the corner crying and you’re excited. Well, it’s because like, oh, okay, well, that’s a problem that I get to solve. That’s fun. That’s outside of the normal content that I do.

06:49
Yeah, I think all of us as entrepreneurs have these ups and downs and when things are hard and then when things are going well. Right, but you didn’t answer the question, have you ever wanted to give up? Yeah, every time my microphone doesn’t work. Shut up, you want to give up every time that happens?

07:07
I don’t want to give up totally, but like for example, do you remember several years ago when I just started an e-commerce, I built a Shopify site and everyone was like, you got to be on Klaviyo, you got to be on Klaviyo. And this was before Klaviyo was as slick as it is today. I will say Klaviyo is a lot different than it was when I started using it. And I could not get the forms installed correctly on my site. And I spent, I don’t know, it was two or three days trying to do this. And I was so angry and I was angry with you because you existed. Do you remember this? Like you were angry with me? I was trying to help you.

07:35
Well, I know, but like every time you talked to me, I was like, shut up, you know, because I was just so upset about everything. And so at that point, I was like, there go. There’s the Asian culture. I’m used to just being beaten down. But it was just like, is this even worth it? Do I even need Klaviyo? Can I’ll just find an easier solution. I forget what I was using before Klaviyo, but I was just thought this isn’t worth the headache and the time. I’m just going to give up and do something else, try something else and not.

08:03
continue to work through this, because it was just like my level of frustration was just far too high. I do remember that. I’m trying to block it out of my mind. You should. You should add that to your therapy session. See, I consider that more frustration. I mean, you got it working. mean, did you really consider giving up like deep down? you were you going to just screw Klaviyo? Yeah, for sure. I think I said more bad words in that 48 hour period than I had in probably six months to a year of my life. So here’s how I look at that.

08:33
From my perspective, you only spent 48 hours on it. I mean, that’s not enough time to give up on something. But remember, I only studied for four hours for the SAT. I mean, there’s perspective in that, right? This is like a random topic, but it’s kind of related. So when you watch like a series, for example, on Netflix, how many episodes do you give it before you give up on it? If it’s bad. Two or three, maybe. Okay, I’ll watch half the series just to give it a chance.

09:03
So and when it comes to tech stuff, like I’ll give it like a good solid Week or two of frustration. Okay before I you know why this is all what happened to me it’s because what happened to me in college like there’s times when For some reason like I would struggle through something But then it would take me like three months and then all of a sudden I would get it and be the best feeling in the world And I sincerely believe that just things take time to sink in

09:33
I agree with you. That’s actually one of my points on how to get over it. Okay. You’re just jumping way ahead now. I’m sorry. It’s okay. I’m sorry. So on giving up, the only time I wanted to give up and I’m going to loosely use that term here. But when I was blogging and I was writing every single day, like five days a week, I should say. Right. For that one month. Yeah. For that one month. It was for that one month. And I was like, I can’t do this. I can’t do this. This is too much. This is too much.

10:03
So I ended up giving up, but I didn’t give up the blog. What I did is I just went down to less writing and that worked out for me. And then in terms of money with the blog, it was pretty miserable early on actually, because I was spending all this time getting burned out and then no one was reading too. So that’s kind of tough. I think that’s really tough when you, and we see this a lot.

10:27
with people that are just getting started is they’re working really, really hard. They’re putting in 100 % effort and they’re just not seeing a return yet because it does take time. And they just get really discouraged because they’re spending, you know, all of their free time because they still have a full-time job and they’re just not seeing any traffic or email subscribers or any real traction and they get really discouraged. Yeah, I’m sure this probably happened to your blog too. How did you get over that?

10:55
I actually did. I didn’t have that problem in the beginning because I was just so excited to have something to do in an outlet that I probably would have blogged for a long time for free. Oh, interesting. really worried about it because I was just excited because I mean, I had been a stay at home mom for 15 years with really not no creative outlet. So for me, it was more of an outlet. And I thought I wanted to make money for sure. But I wasn’t as concerned about that initially is that I just was excited about

11:23
It was something new and interesting and I was making internet friends, which sounds weird, but I mean, that’s what it is, right? I mean, I gave myself a long enough timeframe to get through it, I guess. But yeah, I just remember that first year. I think the lowest point was when my mom was like, wait a second, you studied engineering, got your master’s in engineering. And now you’re writing about random stuff like on the internet and you expect this to make money. Yeah.

11:51
I have white parents so they’re like, you’re amazing, you did great, I could do nothing and they would still say that. She was like, how are you gonna make money off of this? Yeah, I didn’t have that. My discouragement came later on when I think, and it’s probably a little bit of our personalities too, my discouragement usually came from outside sources, like people being nasty to me or feeling like- People you know? No, people I didn’t know. Clearly that’s not the best way to go about this.

12:19
Yeah, just negative feedback or or even just Looking looking at something that I had done and realizing that maybe that wasn’t the best thing that I wasn’t my best work or I don’t know I think my discouragement came from a lot of that not Not necessarily feeling like things weren’t moving quick enough since we’re on the topic of negative feedback You know the negative feedback that hurts the most Is the one are the comments that have like a small element of truth to it? Yeah, not the ones that are just like oh, yeah

12:49
outright mean, but yeah. And because when I got started, my kids were little and I wrote a lot about like parenting and homeschooling and things like that. So people make comments about my kids. And I mean, you know me, if you want to upset me, say something about my like you can’t really get me upset unless you talk about my children. And then I lose my mind. So I think like hearing stuff about my kids was really hard for me, even if especially if there was a little bit of truth to it.

13:15
Yeah, and I’m just, you didn’t really have any problems with your e-commerce store, but when I first started out, I had spent all this time learning, like the shopping cart, going through all the source code, creating the store, and then my wife got all this inventory, and when we launched, there was no orders at all for a little bit. Yeah. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, well, at least I got all these hankies I can cry into. You have a lifetime supply of tissues.

13:45
I mean, we didn’t have that same struggle with the store, but I think for me in the e-commerce world, there were times when there was an issue with Amazon. And if you work on Amazon at all as a seller, you know that getting through to a real human that can help you is nearly impossible most of the time. And there were times when I would spend a week or two weeks just trying to get, like a couple of years ago when we got that suspension for being used, sold as new, where someone had like reported us falsely. And it took 90 days to get that figured out.

14:15
90 days of like going back and forth and jumping through all these hoops and like it was never enough for Amazon. And actually a good friend of mine got something similar, just got suspended off Amazon and he was like, I’m done. I mean, he just kind of wanted to give up and I was like, don’t give up, you’re gonna get through it. But I think that things like that where you feel like things are totally out of your control, like you’re doing everything they say to do, but it’s still not working.

14:38
That’s when I, I back then when I had that problem with the jewelry, was like, is this even worth it? Like I’m wasting so much time. I’m not making any sales because my stuff’s all suspended. And what am I doing here anymore? I mean, I started way before Amazon. Yeah. But that’s one of the things I just didn’t like about Amazon. You have no control. So most of the decisions I make these days are about having that control. Yeah, I agree. But it’s harder. Yeah. I mean, Amazon’s easy, I think, for the most part.

15:08
except for you have to deal with Amazon. But so I want to get into like how you can get over this because I think most people at some point, unless they were raised by Asian parents and made them go to SAT class when they were seven, probably feel like giving up at some point or another. Don’t you agree? I mean, I think everyone wants to give up. Well, I’m curious to see what’s that? A lot of people do give up. Yeah. So I’m actually curious what your methods are. Well, as you know, I have a list.

15:37
Of course. Is this the part where you talk for the rest of the interview? No, because I’m sure you have a list too, right? I don’t have a list, but I’m going to riff off of yours. Of course you will. So I think the first thing you have to do when you are building a business as an entrepreneur is you have to kind of adopt this you don’t give up mentality. Like you have to go into it saying no matter how hard this gets, I’m not quitting. And I think that’s really important because if you go into it with sort of this

16:07
laxadaisical attitude, then it’s going to be really easy when things don’t work out to just how many people do we know that started a website and then wrote three, three pieces of content or make record seven podcast episodes or make six YouTube videos and then they’re done. Yeah. So my corollary to that is you have to go in with low expectations early on. Like your timeframe has to be much longer. Right. Like if you tell yourself you’re to make money within three months or six months,

16:36
and that time period happens and you haven’t started making money yet, that’s when you’re most likely to give up. So this is why I always give myself at least a three to five year timeframe. I always watch at least half of the series before I like chest pains over three to five years, geez. Well, okay, take our course, take this podcast, right? What mentality are you going in with it? I mean, I would agree with you, but when you hear that out loud, that sounds really long.

17:06
Really, does it? Don’t you think for just a normal person that seems like a long time? I mean, do you consider a year a long time? Does a normal person consider a year a long time? I think a normal, I don’t know. People can email me and yell at me and that’s fine. I think a year seems like a long time for people. In today’s society where everything is instant, a year is a long time. Okay. Well, I mean, that’s even more reason to set the proper expectations. I totally agree with you, for sure. Right.

17:35
Most of your money is going to be made after a year, it’s time frame. And very little money is going to be made within a year. Like the blog took me three years. The store was a year, but that wasn’t our expectation. I agree with you. I just think for people to hear that is hard because most people expect, especially like think about this, if you just go get a job somewhere, you’re going to get a paycheck in two weeks. Yeah. Well, here’s the other thing. I think things have to be stable before you start your business too. Like if you are desperate for money. Right.

18:05
and you start your business, that’s gonna make it so that you’re gonna give up much sooner, right? Because you’re be like, okay, wow, I need money sooner, sooner, sooner. So, how can I make money sooner rather than later? Yeah, well, we always talk about it too. Like if you need money right away, like go drive for Uber, right? mean, do something. Or freelance or something, Yeah, but don’t, you’re not gonna make big money. I think having the right expectations is really critical and not giving up. You know, the other thing, I don’t know how relatable this is gonna be, but.

18:33
Doing any- gonna say none, none. I’m gonna just say none right now. Doing some sort of endurance sport, I think really helps you mentally. You took my point. Really? That is not my didn’t think this was relatable at all. I think it’s 100 % relatable. Are we gonna jump right to that then? Okay, I don’t know where it was on your list because I don’t have your list in front of me. It’s last actually. It’s last on my list because I think it’s so critical. And I was talking to you about this the other day. I hadn’t gone running in almost a year because of this pandemic.

19:02
And there’s this one run I do where you have to run up this mountain for a mile, like switchbacks and stuff. And if you can train your head to just not give up, like I wanted to die at that point. I just wanted to collapse at the side of the road, but I forced myself to get up there and my heart rate was just ridiculous, I think. But if you can train yourself to persist through, and I’m using running as an analogy here, but if you can train yourself to run longer, that kind of trains your mind to persist through the pain in the long run.

19:32
Yeah, so I actually think that is how you just told literally stole my most important point. I think that if you, if you have a focus on your health and your fitness, it’s actually really critical towards anything that you’re doing outside of that. Because I think if you can be disciplined, if you could, cause think about like, I used to have a personal trainer and the reason why I hired a personal trainer was because I didn’t want to give up in the gym when things got tough. Like, okay, well I can do.

20:02
20 pushups, but can I actually do 30? Maybe I could do 40, right? But when it got tough at like 22, I was like, oh, that’s good, I did 22, right? That seems acceptable. And the trainer was the one that pushed me, like, no, I can remember doing the girl pushups, you know, where your knees are bent, and I did the girl pushups for like the first month. And then one day he was like, well, you need to do the real pushups. And I was like, oh, I don’t know how, I can’t do those, I’m not strong enough. He’s like, you can do the real pushups. I would have kept doing those other pushups for probably another six weeks to two months.

20:31
had he not said, nope, you’re gonna do them right now, you’re gonna do them today. And I think if you have that mentality in one area of your life, it’s very easy to transfer it to another area of your life. And to me, like health and fitness is a really easy area to like work on that, right? Because it’s easy to exercise, not easy, but it’s something that everyone can do. It’s easy to work on what you’re eating, being disciplined like that. Like that’s something that every single person has access to, that not everything else works out that way.

21:01
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21:29
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21:59
And if you tell Steve that I sent you, you’ll get a hundred dollar discount. That’s E-M-E-R-G-E-C-O-U-N-S-E-L dot com. Now back to the show. I mean, to me, health and fitness is almost exactly like running a business. Like if you want to lose weight, you’re not going to see results right away. But then you got to persist. it’s it’s a lot of willpower sometimes, too. Well, and it’s also correlated to business in that. you maybe you need to lose 20 pounds, let’s just say.

22:28
and you get started, you’re making changes to what you’re eating, you’re, you know, let’s say now you’re exercising three times a week, you’re being more disciplined. Initially, you’re gonna feel like crap, most likely, because your body’s like, what are you doing to me? And then it’s gonna take a little bit of time for you to start seeing results, but then when you start seeing them, they sort of exponentially go. Like once you start lifting weights, you see much bigger gains over time than when you first get started.

22:55
Right? Like it takes a little bit of time for your body to start working that way. So I think it’s the same with business where you get started, you’re going to put in a lot of work, you’re not going to feel that great about it. And then eventually you’ll hockey stick, which is kind of the same with it’s like when you train for a marathon, right? You don’t run the 26 miles the first time you go out there, you run like a mile and then each week you increase it. And then all of sudden you can do it. I’ve never trained for a marathon, but I see your point. I mean, I’ve never trained for a but all my friends have.

23:22
And I never will. Yeah, I never will either. It’s no desire for that torture in my life. But yeah. OK, well, now that you stole my best point, I have a lot more. You do. OK, let’s see the next one. I do. So I think another really critical component in not giving up is to understand why you’re doing what you’re doing. If you’re just doing this to get rich quick or to kill time or, because you on a whim, you’re definitely going to give up because you’re not going to understand the reason behind it.

23:52
But if you understand why you’re doing this, and I think for both of us, and you can correct me if I’m speaking for you incorrectly, but we did this because we want to build a business that’s flexible, that allows us to earn a living and spend more time with our families and sort of have this lifestyle where we’re not tied to something that we don’t control. And so when things get tough, like let’s just talk about when I couldn’t get the Klavia stuff working, right? Well, sure, I could have quit. I could have…

24:19
gotten a job in an office or done something like that, but then what was I giving up in that? Well, I was giving up the ability to pick my kids up from school or to take them to practice or to be at all of their activities. And so that’s what makes what for me, it’s like, well, sure, I could go get a job somewhere, but then what’s my life like and what is that what I want? No, that’s not what I want. So I’ve got to get through this stuff so that I can continue to build what I want as opposed to something that might be easier short term. That’s a really important point.

24:49
because I actually didn’t start my business at all. Like we had talked about it for the longest time and we dragged our feet on just even getting started until our first child, until my wife became pregnant with our first child. And then everything got kicked into gear and all of a sudden I was very diligent about doing the research and getting something started. So for us at least, one, it was a reason to persist, but it was even a reason for us to just get started in the first place. Yeah. And I think that’s really important because then

25:19
If you have something that you can go back to and say, okay, let’s just do like a pros and cons of what’s going on right now. As long as you have this like why in your pros, then I think it will usually overcome most of the cons unless you realize that, this isn’t just working out at all. Like it’s not what I thought it was. And that’s a totally different, so that’s a different podcast. And we kind of covered this point already, but you really have to commit. Like if you go in telling yourself, hey, I’m just gonna try this for a couple months and see what happens.

25:48
That almost never ever works out. Yeah, I agree. Okay, the next point, and this is sort of if you’re in that phase where you’re just like, this sucks, I can’t do it anymore, I wanna give up, it’s not going. I think one of the things that’s really helpful for me is to find a quick win. Like what is something that I can do today or this week that’s going to be a positive win that will help me get over the hurdle? Because I think a lot of times,

26:15
people get frustrated, like for me, like you were saying, you wanted to quit over Clavio? Well, I did, I mean, I didn’t do it, but sometimes people get frustrated and then they just sort of like, it just increases in them and as opposed to being able to step back and look at it logically, like you’re looking at my situation logically, I wasn’t, because I was in the middle of it. So I think if you can find a quick win, then it allows you to take a little bit of a step back and realize, okay, hey, it’s not as bad as I thought it was, I can do this, I can get through it, and look, this is something that I’ve already done that’s really great.

26:44
Yeah, actually I teach this in my profitable online store class. Like instead of going out and ordering like a huge container and nothing selling, just go out and try to sell one unit. Yeah. see if you can buy whatever means necessary. And as soon as you see that first sale happen, that will actually encourage you to, or get you excited to keep going. Yeah. And along those same lines, I think it’s really important to write down your wins.

27:09
if you’re working really hard, things aren’t going exactly how you want them to go, write down all the things that have gone right in your business. And I think it’s important, because I think also what happens is when you’re in the middle of it, you can’t see very well, either future or past, and being able to say, hey, look, these are five really amazing things that I’ve already accomplished. And that will give you a little more hope or endurance or perseverance, whatever it is, to keep going. Because you realize, hey, this is a time when things were bad and I overcame it this way.

27:37
So now I can probably do the same thing in this situation. Do you actually do this? Write down wins? Yeah. When things get really bad? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I’ve never done that before. Of course, you don’t have any wins. That’s why. It’s probably true. That’s not true. So my mom says all the time, you got no wins.

27:58
think people, and I know you’re kind of like this, like you don’t like to write a lot of things down. don’t, yes. Yeah. But I think people shy away from that, but I think it actually is really, really effective and people should do it more often. I actually do believe in talking about things. So occasionally when my wife and I like over the holidays, when things are getting really tough, we remind ourselves what the business has done. So it’s more of a gratitude thing.

28:25
And that makes it feel better. So it’s similar, we just don’t write it down, we talk it through, guess. Whereas you probably have ton of little Post-It notes all over the place. I have Post-It notes everywhere, multiple colors, depending on how good the win is. just piggybacking on what you said about your wife, that’s another one of my points, is find yourself either a mastermind group or an accountability partner. Because I think it’s really hard to build a business totally by yourself. That’s not saying you need a partner in your business,

28:54
me cussing you out for not for not doing anything wrong. You know you cussed me out earlier this morning for some reason I just can’t remember what it Oh I did I did. I was giving you a hard time about something. You were don’t don’t ruin my image stop. It happens daily by the way it’s oh my goodness it’s not even true stop it.

29:15
I think if you have someone that you can go to when things are difficult, that’s really helpful because they can, if you’re at the point where you can’t even see the wins or you can’t even see through any of this or even remember your why, your mastermind group or your accountability partner will help you see those things. Yeah. you some perspective. I mean, I can’t tell you how valuable my mastermind groups have been. Just even in terms of improving the business or just getting the encouragement to even try something new or to persist in something or

29:44
I remember there’s this, I can’t remember what it was now. There was this one marketing method which wasn’t working for me. And it might’ve been Amazon actually. We were having problems getting on Amazon and I think Lars was like, you idiot, just do it. Just do it and go all in. And now Amazon’s a significant part of our business because of that. Masterminds, highly recommended. Yeah. I think it’s important to have people that are sort of in your corner and sharing for you, but also will be very honest with you at the same time.

30:12
And on the flip side too, just even having a partner that maybe you share some equity with in your business is important too because it just makes it more fun. And as long as you’re having fun, even if you’re not making any money at the moment, you know, at least it doesn’t feel like work.

30:28
say that’s very true with our partnership. I mean, we joke about it, but I do think there are a lot of days where it’s just fun to work together. And so it’s not as it makes the long-term better because it’s like, hey, if we still have to do this for a couple of years before it takes off, then I’m okay with that because I’m having a good time. Yeah. But making money is important too.

30:48
Well, absolutely. mean, otherwise you’re out. Otherwise you’re out. That’s why I partnered with you, Mr. Fourth Grade SAT. Unfortunately, SATs do not translate into money. clearly. I’m sure my SAT scores were not even remember them. I’m sure they weren’t good. I try not to remember mine too, because my brother didn’t study and he beat me on his first try.

31:11
Let’s not let’s not dig up I’m pretty sure I beat my brother and sister, but they’re not test takers. That’s not what they’re, they have very different personalities. What else do you have on that list of yours? I have, okay, I’m not sure you’re gonna agree with this one actually. It’s okay to take a break. How long of a break are we talking about here? I think it’s, well, I don’t know. Not Have you ever taken a break in your life?

31:41
Or is this one of those things that you found on the internet? No, I think it’s something that I should do. Kind of piggybacking on all the other things we’ve been talking about. I think if you’re able to take a little bit of a break, you can gain some perspective. I think there’s something to be said about powering through and forcing yourself to do the next thing, which I think is really important. But sometimes it’s better just to walk away for a day or two and completely clear your head.

32:08
not check anything, not do anything so that you can come back and have sort of a fresh perspective on your business. Okay, I agree with you in a day or two. When you said break, like when I think break, I think like what our friend Bob did was like take a year off. So you don’t agree with that? I mean, if you got to take a year off, I mean, that’s gonna hurt rather than benefit unless you’re like totally in shambles, I guess, with your business. Like if you’re totally burnt out, then then maybe but if you’re totally burnt out,

32:38
then you might want to just consider changing the lifestyle a little bit. Sure. I mean, think there’s I don’t I don’t want to say that there’s like a acceptable time to take a break because I think for some people just walking away for a day, like, as you know, a couple of weeks ago, I went away for a couple of days and it was probably the first time that I didn’t work like didn’t check, didn’t check email, didn’t check anything for three or four days and probably 10 plus years. And

33:05
So I think that that was really helpful for me to just step away and clear my head about things. But I could see maybe taking a month off if things are really tough. I think it would be better for your business in the long run and definitely not in the short term. You’re going to get hit for sure. Yeah. I mean, what I like to do when things get tough is I just go running because it clears my mind. You get into this weird trance. Sometimes I’ll do like breathing exercises like the Wim Hof stuff.

33:35
to clear my head. And I don’t really need more than like a couple days to set away. I guess I try not to burn myself out in the first place. Like I try not to take on too much to begin with, but that’s just my personality. Like if you’re also, you’re also coming at this from your, like we both know you don’t like anything on your calendar. That’s correct. And so when you’re talking about this now, you don’t ever, I don’t think you ever really get to the point where you’re that burnout. That’s correct. I mean, I like to see, I like to look at my calendar in the morning and just see like,

34:05
one appointment. And it should be me. That’s the appointment. Well, you don’t even have a calendar slot, actually. What? Come on. You don’t have a calendar slot because it’s it’s kind of like it’s like an all day thing. I feel like just I just have the whole whole thing. The whole block. OK, next one that I have that I’m getting close to the end, I promise. Is it OK to pivot? I don’t think it’s OK to give up.

34:32
but it’s okay to try something different. And I’m gonna use us as an example. So a couple years ago, had a business, well, you had a business idea that you forced me into, very rudely, might I add. But- What? How did I force you into it? Do you remember this? I was boarding a plane and I get a text from you and it says, I have a business idea for you and I. You’re either in or you’re out. Tell me now, or something like that. Like that was the text. I think that’s how you interpreted it.

35:00
In reality, I probably said, hey, Tony, I have this great opportunity. Take your time. Take your time. But I just need an answer as soon as you can. Yeah, that’s a lie. Total lie. Anyway, you had a business idea. I actually thought it was a great business idea. We launched it and there were just a lot of, I think, hurdles that we didn’t anticipate in it. I think the execution was pretty good and I think the idea was good. But there were just there was certain things that were out of our control.

35:27
And after several months, we realized that, this is probably not the best idea. And it doesn’t make sense to keep going when we could probably think of something else that would be better and we wouldn’t be facing the same kind of hurdles that we’re facing in this business. And so I think it’s okay to do that. I think it’s okay if you give something time and you put your, because I think we put our best effort in for sure. It’s okay to say, hey, let’s pivot. Maybe you start a podcast and you realize I’m not good on a podcast or.

35:53
This isn’t something I like to do, but I really love video. So you switch to making YouTube videos. You’re not quitting. You’re just changing what you’re doing to make it a better fit for you. So that business that we’re talking about here, I don’t consider that a pivot actually. I think we just put that on the back burner. Actually, this is an interesting topic. I don’t know if we have time to cover it, but how do you know when to stop whatever you’re doing? Yeah, that might be a whole other podcast. Oh, is it a whole other podcast? I think we can do an entire podcast on when to stop.

36:23
When to quit? Yeah. So maybe we won’t get into that. But yeah, I don’t consider that pivot. There’s there’s certain times when it just doesn’t feel right. And that’s the only time when I’ll actually stop something. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. So I think that’s okay. I think it’s okay to sort of differentiate between giving up and changing direction. You have anything else on your list? I do. It’s a real but it’s more of a technique on how to

36:53
push through when you feel this way. It’s interesting they have all these techniques. It’s because I’m such a quitter. For me, like this podcast episode would be really short. Suck it up. Don’t quit. Yeah, exactly. The end. OK, let’s hear your last one. Have you heard of the Pomodoro technique? Yes. Why don’t you explain it, though? Yeah, because we haven’t talked about that, I don’t think, on any podcast yet. basically, it’s a tech. So this is what I do when I get frustrated with things and when I want to just give up.

37:22
is basically you pick a task that you have to do. And this is helpful if you have your tasks written down, but I know not all of us do that. Oh, a little subtle jab there. Not so subtle jab. Pick a task and then set your timer for 25 minutes. Everybody has a timer on your phone, so you can do this. And then work only on that task. Do not check anything. I actually, I’ve started doing this again because I have a lot. I have a lot of like personal stuff going on right now that’s interrupting my work, which is causing me a lot of frustration.

37:52
I’ve started to do this just so I can stay focused when I do have time to work. I actually even take off my watch because I have an Apple watch. So that thing buzzes all day long with notifications. So I flip my phone over, I take off my watch, I set the timer for 25 minutes and I work only on that one thing. I don’t check email, I don’t check social media, I don’t do anything outside of that one task. And basically what you do is you do that four times in a row.

38:16
So you set your timer for 25 minutes, you pick one task, you work on it. When the 25 minutes is up, you take a three to five minute break and then you start over again. And after the fourth time, then you can take like a 15 to 30 minute break. So if you think about that, that gives you basically two hours of uninterrupted work. And I will tell you, it is amazing what you can get done in two hours of uninterrupted work. I just did this this morning right before we recorded this podcast where I actually finished two slide decks in like 35 minutes.

38:45
because I had my watch off, my phone off. Now of course I pick up my phone at the end and I’ve got like 110 text messages, right? But think about it, normally those are all coming in as I’m working and I’m seeing them and even though maybe I’m not responding, it’s causing me to be distracted and to think about other things that are going on. So I think if you’re stuck in that really hard place, doing something like this where you can be hyper-focused and shove everything else out of the way is really effective, because then you have a win, right? Now I have a win that two of my tasks are done for today.

39:15
I was never like a huge fan of the Pomodoro Technique. Well, it sounds really fancy and all, but like this is the way that I used to study for my entire life, right? So what I do is I get into my office, I turn off all the lights except for one light, and then I just put on my headphones, and then I close all the distractions, and then I work for four hours straight. I mean- I don’t know if that’s healthy.

39:40
How

40:04
I agree with you, however, you can always keep working when your timer goes off. But for a lot of people, since you don’t understand this at all, even being overwhelmed with life, I think for a lot of people. Well, I’m just this is a study tactic, right? I mean, have to into that flow state. Yes. But I think for a lot of people, if you want to give up, if you had the thought of I’m going to work on this task till it’s done is overwhelming. But if you have the thought of I’m going to work on this task for 25 minutes, that’s very manageable. OK.

40:33
What if you don’t accomplish anything in those 25 minutes? How could you not accomplish anything? Well, what if you don’t accomplish anything significant in those 25 minutes? Then you get your three to five minute break, and then you go back and do another 25 minutes. Like sometimes when I’m coding something, eight hours will pass. I forget to eat, I forget to do a whole bunch of things. That’s like the ideal state for productivity for me. But if I had this timer going off, that’s gonna interrupt that.

41:02
I don’t know, I guess we just have different opinions. Let’s be honest though, how many people listening to this are coding? Well, it can be anything. It could be writing. Sometimes I’m writing something and before you know it, the entire day has passed. But you can always keep going. But… We’re arguing. I’m having such a hard time with you right now because I don’t think you understand what it feels like.

41:30
think you have no idea. You don’t understand what it feels like to be so overwhelmed that you can’t get started. And there are people that legitimately feel that way. Like that is a very legitimate feeling for people. And so to say you need to do something for 25 minutes seems doable. Whereas I need to work, I have to write a 5,000 word article. Well, heck to the no. I’m not gonna be able to do that. I’m too overwhelmed. But if you say, hey, I want you to write for 25 minutes, anyone can do that.

41:57
So I can relate to that on a larger scale. So for example, I’m going to bring tech here again. We are, course. So at our work, we have to design this really complicated microprocessor at my last job. But then the way tech works is you write a little piece of code, a little piece of code each day, and it just kind of builds up into something really big. So it sounds like this is your way on a smaller scale. Let’s say you have to write a 5,000 word article. Just say, hey, I’m going to write 500 words.

42:27
Yeah, or I’m gonna write the outline. Right. Right. Or I’m gonna do my table of contents. What I don’t like about this is the Pomodoro technique, it sounds like something groundbreaking, you know? I don’t think it’s groundbreaking, it’s just that’s what people call it. I didn’t want to act like we thought of this or anything. Oh, no, no, no, I know, I know. But when you call something the Pomodoro technique, really it’s just sit your ass down for 25 minutes, get something down. Oh, so Sit down, shut up, and get to work. I exactly. That’s what we’re saying here. Exactly. No, but I think the 25 minutes…

42:57
component is important when you are overwhelmed. And I also think, let’s just talk, let’s go back to email because that’s what I can talk about. I can’t talk about microprocessor design. And so yesterday I was working on something for ConvertKit because we were doing that for our upcoming challenge. And I’m not, I don’t use ConvertKit, I use Drip, but I had to set stuff up in ConvertKit because that’s what we recommend because it’s more cost effective. And I got frustrated because something didn’t look right and we were talking about this.

43:23
And I thought, you all I’m going to do is do these three things. I’m going to these three things done and then I’m going to consider that a win right now. And then I’ll go back and finish it up later. So I think if you can kind of take that mentality of, you know, maybe it’s really overwhelming to install email forms on your site. Well, just focus on creating that first email form. Get the first email form, get the verbiage right, work on that, work on what, however you’re going to, where is it going to live on your site? And then that’s a win for you. And so then you’re not as discouraged as you were when you got started. Yeah.

43:51
I can see that. Hey, let’s wrap things up here since we went all over the place here. I think the most important thing about all this is you have to train your mind to get through what I call like the suck. So, and it translates to whatever you do. For me, I think the best way to train your mind is through suffering. I know this sounds terrible, but if you want to run, push yourself to run farther than you can and to not give up.

44:20
And it helps have a trainer, like you said, to do this. But this muscle that you develop over time will translate into every single aspect of your life. I agree. And I think if you can get this right in one area of your life, you’re probably going to translate it to almost every other area of your life. And you’re going to see a lot of success all over. And then you can try the tactics. Like the quick wins, I think, is a good one. Because just in the course of teaching my class, a lot of students, they want to give up when they don’t see any sales. So just

44:49
do something and just try to get like one sale or whatnot. And that will give you the drive to continue on. So just make sure you sprinkle some of those in for every day. Simple things that you can just accomplish really quickly. Yep, I think it’s also okay to take a short break and refocus, sort of get re-centered in what you’re doing and be able to think about your business in a more removed way than when you’re stuck in the trenches. Yeah, I think a break is good or like a good run where you can just clear your mind.

45:17
For some reason for me, after I exercise is when I’m the most productive and I’m the most motivated actually. Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now if you love the dynamic between Tony and myself and you’d like to see the other side of Steve, please find your favorite podcast app and subscribe to the profitable audience podcast. For more information about this episode, go to mywifequitterjob.com slash episode 345. And once again, I want to thank Clavio, which is my email marketing platform of choice for e-commerce merchants.

45:44
You can easily put together automated flows like an abandon card sequence, a post purchase flow, a win back campaign. Basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to mywifequitterjob.com slash KLAVIO. Once again, that’s mywifequitterjob.com slash KLAVIO. I also want to thank Postscript, which is my SMS marketing platform of choice for e-commerce. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base.

46:09
SMS is the next big own marketing platform and you can sign up for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P O S T S C R I P T dot I O slash Steve. Now I talk about how I use these tools on my blog and if you are interested in starting your own eCommerce store, head on over to mywifequitterjob.com and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.