426: The Best Strategy To Grow An Audience Today With Neville Medhora

00:00
You’re listening to the My Wife Could Her Job podcast, the place where I bring on successful bootstrap business owners and delve deeply into the strategies they use to grow their businesses. today I have my favorite outspoken Zoroastrian friend back on the show, Neville Medora. Now, Neville runs CopywritingCourse.com where he runs an incredible copywriting community and that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. We discuss how written content creation has evolved over the years and the limitations of WordPress in order to be successful with content today. Now, before we begin, I wanna thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode.

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Postscript is my SMS or text messaging provider that I use for e-commerce and it’s crushing it for me. I never thought that people would want marketing text messages, but it works. In fact, my tiny SMS list is performing on par with my email list, which is easily 10x bigger. Anyway, Postscript specializes in text message marketing for e-commerce and you can segment your audience just like email. It’s an inexpensive solution, converts like crazy, and you can try it for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-R-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve.

01:00
I also want to thank Klaviyo for sponsoring this episode. Always excited to talk about Klaviyo because they’re the email marketing platform that I personally use for my e-commerce store and I depend on them for over 30 % of my revenue. Now you’re probably wondering why Klaviyo and not another provider. Well Klaviyo is the only email platform out there that is specifically built for e-commerce stores and here’s why it’s so powerful. Klaviyo can track every single customer who has shopped in your store and exactly what they bought. So let’s say I want to send an email to everyone who purchased a red handkerchief in the last week. Easy.

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Let’s say I want to set up a special order, sponsor sequence to my customers, depending on what they bought, piece of cake, and there’s full revenue tracking on every email sent. Klaviyo is the most powerful email platform that I’ve ever used. You can try them for free over at klaviyo.com slash my wife. That’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash my wife. And then finally, I want to mention my other podcasts that I released with my partner, Tony. And unlike this one, where I interviewed successful entrepreneurs in e-commerce, the profitable audience podcast covers all things related to content creation and building an audience.

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No topic is off the table and we tell like how it is in a raw and entertaining way. So be sure to check out the profitable audience podcast on your favorite podcast app. Now on to the show.

02:14
Welcome to the My Wife, Quarter Job podcast. Today I’m happy to have Neville Madora back on the show. And believe it or not, Neville was one of my very first guests on my podcast back in 2014. In fact, he was episode number three and he actually, and he doesn’t know this, but he actually held the record for the best podcast episode for at least that first year. Now we met randomly at FinCon. We’ve been friends ever since. He was one of the original guys behind AppSumo.

02:42
And now he makes a living over at copywriting course, teaching other people how to write persuasive copy. The guy’s got a ton of personality and is easily my favorite outspoken Indian guy that I know. So welcome back to Neville. Thanks. You’re my sixth favorite Asian. So, yeah. Wait, you know, six Asians? Man, I dropped out at number six. That’s it’s like 0.8 of you. Kim Jong Un is number one.

03:09
Yeah, so Neville used to call me Kim Jong-un. That’s what he used to call me. was my nickname. Great David Tell joke where he’s like, have a crush on Kim Jong-un’s sister, Kim Jong-Stacey. Stupid. You know what? What’s funny is that last time I had you on, I actually kind of listened to part of the episode. You were running NevBlog back in the day. Yeah. And copywriting courses with a K.

03:35
So catch me up, man. So I noticed now with Copying Cores with a C and then NevBlog, I don’t think you really update anymore, right? No, because there’s all these different social media platforms that have taken over. It used to be back in the day, like in 2000, you’d update a website and people would go to it. Now it’s like you could update Twitter, Facebook and everything. So having like a personal blog has kind of gone a little bit out of vogue, right? Like people still have them, but they’re not updated as much or you just update on social media networks and then people can see the updates much quicker like that.

04:05
Yeah, so I don’t update netblog anymore, but I am far more active on my social medias now. So let’s talk about that. Cause I’ve always had this love, hate relationship with social. And I know before we started recording, you said that if you were to start all over, you wouldn’t start with your website, you’d start with social. let’s, yeah, I never thought I say that it used to be like, obviously you start a website first because you could collect emails. You can have all your stuff over there. Now, if you think about what a website is, it’s basically just a place that you can update from.

04:34
and then it shows it on the web. So technically Twitter satisfies that, right? I can make an update. I can post a photo, I can post a video and it shows it. Same with the website. The thing that I’ve been sad about in the blogging world is that WordPress, which runs like 30 to 40 % of the entire internet has never moved past like the 1999 era of publishing. So right, still with WordPress, you go, you publish something and just lays on a website and no one sees it.

04:59
So now you have to get your email traffic to come see it. You have to post on social for people to come see it. You have to some other traffic to come because it doesn’t just naturally show up in feeds. Whereas social media networks have far surpassed this like since Facebook. So if I post on Facebook or LinkedIn, anything, pick poison, if I post on Facebook, it automatically shows you what I posted, right? It shows other people in the feed. It allows them to natively comment on it. It shows up their name. So it’s not just random commenters on the web.

05:28
It allows you to like, interact, heart, blah, blah, drop a video, whatever. Whereas WordPress, can’t really do all that stuff. And I’ve always wished that one of these WordPress commenting platforms would discuss. I always thought that one would unify WordPress and have this unified commenting experience and engagement. It just never happened. And so even with my main blog now, I’ve actually recently, as of March, moved off of WordPress, which I never thought would happen. What would you move to? I moved to a

05:57
Envision Community, which is a forum software. Now forum softwares have really bad blogging platforms, so it’s heavily modified. So if you look at it and be like, where can I get that template? It’s like it’s not a normal template. was heavily, heavily modified to be a blog also. But we run our community on that same platform. Once again, heavily modified. So I was like, what if we could just blog on it and the comments would be in the feed, all that kind of stuff. It would all be integrated.

06:25
And so I went through great efforts to get off of WordPress, which is a great publishing platform, but just, I don’t think it’s up to community standards. Like it’s not very communicative like social is. Do people have to log in to your community? Yes. Okay. So you can make it where they don’t, but I make them log in. But that’s tough then. Cause now you got to drive people to your community. Why not have the community on like Facebook or social media platform?

06:51
So that’s another interesting thing we started doing. So for example, if someone’s not logged in, what we would make them do before is like go to the blog and then type in their name, type their email address, type of their website, and then leave a comment and they can’t edit it or anything. So what we do now is you say, respond to this email with your comment. And then we go in and manually put that in to the website as a comment. And I’m actually building actually by Wednesday, I should have the first draft of the thing that automatically takes their comment, puts it on the website. And then whenever I reply, it also sends an email back.

07:21
So kind of like reinventing commenting a little bit to make it easier. So that doesn’t solve the problem of getting people to your site though, right? And to your community. So what happens is we have a very active community, CopywritingCourse.com. You’d see it. We have a feed on the side of the website where you could see what’s going on. I’m actually making a cool stats page where you can see all the stats going on live, even if you’re not logged in. So we have an active community there. So I was just like, well, if I make a post in the forum, people comment right away and start interacting.

07:50
Whereas if I make a blog post on my WordPress site, no one sees it and have to tell everyone about it. So now that I have everything on one platform, as soon as I post on a site or comment on it, it puts at the top of the feed that everyone sees and clicks on and comments on. So it gets far more engagement this way. The feed on a page where people are logged into? No, you can be not logged. You get a copywritingcourse.com slash blog and like see the feed on the side of what’s going on. Oh, I see of comments. Anyone can see that. can’t.

08:18
click into them unless it’s a blog post. If it’s a blog post, you could click it. But if it’s like a private thing inside our community, you could see the name of it, but you can’t click it. I see. Hint, that’s how I get people some FOMO. Okay. So let’s like start in the beginning then. So how do you get people into this community? Like, how do you build a community? Just get your name out there. I’ve noticed things like going on blogs, sorry, podcasts. For example, I’m getting in front of your audience. That’s a great way to, you know,

08:48
All three of the people listening to this will listen and then hopefully maybe one will. It’s actually double that now. Nice. Yeah. But like, hopefully, hopefully someone listens, right? And then also on social people, people hear about me. We have a cool group of characters, Sam Parr, Noah K. We all like talk online and stuff. We all have different communities. Well, their audience hears about me from there. My audience hears about them, et cetera. And so that’s just the way, yeah, just expanding that reach.

09:18
is important. In fact, we were talking about our goals for the year. That’s one of my goals for the year is to expand my reach even more by being a little more consistent on social media and such. Because that that’s definitely how you get people to hear about you. They sign up to your email, they’re like, these are pretty good. And then they see me pitch the community a couple times and they buy. I’m sure it’s much the same marketing tactics like like you do for your community. You know, what’s funny for me is the website’s important because SEO is actually the largest driver of traffic to my site.

09:47
And I have it on the blog. I guess I could put on a different platform. The principles are the same, but that’s how I get my traffic, not social, because what I like about it is you just write something once and the traffic just comes in. Whereas with social, I feel like you just gotta constantly be posting. Oh yeah, if you don’t post on social media for two days, you’re dead. Whereas SEO, you probably wrote an article five years ago that still brings a thousand leads a month. Yeah. Exactly. Same with YouTube. That’s why I like YouTube also.

10:15
YouTube is like SEO for video. It’s like the little secret thing that like, so I haven’t updated my YouTube channel in two months, that shame on me, but every single month it brings in 2000 plus signups. And I don’t touch it. I don’t log on. don’t do anything. And it still brings in day after day after day after day, views, views, views, clicks to my website. And they’re good views too. They’re good customers. Well, yeah, cause they’re watching you for like 10 minutes.

10:41
Yeah, they’re watching you and they’re also seeing your best stuff. Yeah, it’s really great. By the way, so speaking of SEO, you want to hear something interesting about SEO? Sure. So get this. So I was doing a thing. I wanted to get to a million SEO visits a month, right? And so when Copywriting Course was still with Ks, but before we changed the domain name to Copywriting Course with Cs, it was getting 450,000 visits a month from SEO. But get this, a lot of them were like these generators. So it’s like pricing calculator.

11:09
I had one call like the Japanese name generator. We’re just trying to get like random links in the beginning. Yeah. Those tools ranked really well. And they got a lot of traffic. And so you kind of look at our traffic and people are like, holy crap, 450,000 SEO a month. And then you look at the signups and they were relatively low compared to that. Some pages were very high. And then some paid like Japanese name generator had a abysmally low signup. Yeah. Cause like operating cores, Japanese name had no overlap.

11:38
And so when we changed the name with K’s, we bought the domain from someone who’s using it for like this affiliate marketing stuff. It was, it was not quality links. And so all our traffic went away for like eight months. We lost all that traffic. And you know what happened to our sales? Nothing. They stayed the same. So SEO traffic wasn’t contributing to sales is what you’re saying. No.

12:00
And so the SEO traffic wasn’t contributing much. And it was because we had some good keywords that were, by the way, it did do something, but like for the most part, I thought like, man, we were going to tank and we got about the same amount of signups and everything. And I was like, what? That’s insane. And so the new goal starting this year is to get back to that level, but with, uh, targeted words, of course, that should have been the goal all along. But before we were just trying to get links in general from everywhere. And now we got a lot of that. And I’m like, I want to go for only targeted.

12:30
keywords that people want to do and branded search terms. Do know what a branded search term is? Yeah. So that’s always been my plan. Like I only write about e-commerce and then people I’m sure you use Ahrefs, right? So people are Googling my brand much more now than they were ever before. So those are the ultimate search terms. So it’s like, you know, Steve to email templates, Steve to e-commerce templates. They’re only looking for your stuff. Those are the

12:59
best search service. I’ve talked with Sujan Patel, Siege Media, all these places that are big on SEO. Like that’s the main thing they want to go after. Like who cares about email templates? They want Neville’s email templates. That would be the ultimate. So that’s the next goal. I think the influx of that traffic is probably due to like TikTok and Instagram Reels for me. Cause people see me on TikTok and they go, okay, maybe I should just Google this, my wife, quick guy. then think that’s the reason why the traffic’s increased.

13:29
Very, very interesting. Do you have like a link tree or anything in your social media that they click or? I don’t have a link tree. actually have it just go straight to my lead magnet because email is how I convert everybody. So I convert maybe one to 3 % of the traffic coming into email and they go down this really long autoresponder sequence. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, I still think the secret is email signups. that’s still it It always is. Yeah, it’s never changed ever.

13:57
Let’s go back to the original question. Okay. So you said you would start out on social media today, which platform specifically? Probably Twitter in terms of like the speed of like meeting a cool person or seeing them be able to like see their thoughts and then reach out and be like, Hey, you want to hang out? Twitter has been the absolute fastest. You can have conversations with Mark Andreessen, Balaji Shrovasanand, like this founder of Coinbase. You’d have just conversations with them on Twitter. You could DM them. They respond back. Like those types of things happen on Twitter.

14:27
I don’t see that speed of meeting people as fast on Instagram or the other platforms. On Instagram, I do find a lot of social value in it. So updating my friend network of what I’m up to, get a lot of people reaching out, but in terms of like business stuff, it’s kind of like weirdos sometimes. So Twitter, I get the most quality people I would say. So what’s funny is I was not a Twitter believer until a year ago, until I hired someone to help me grow that account.

14:56
And once that happened, it’s been pretty amazing. I’m just curious what your Twitter strategies are to build an account and even get some of those bigger people to even respond to you. Yeah. So I didn’t believe in Twitter. had a Twitter, but all it did was repost my blog posts. That’s what I did too. That’s the wrong way to do it. Yeah. I used to tell people, I’m like, don’t join my Twitter. It’ll just spam you with all my blog posts. I used to tell them that. And then actually during the pandemic, it started to change. I think there’s a guy named David Perrell who was a writer.

15:24
And he was just talking about writing all the time and I would somehow see his tweets pop up. And I was like, wow, this is, I guess you could just like put short thoughts out. I just never really thought about it, which sounds pretty stupid. And so I saw, was using Twitter more and more and my feed was just garbage. Cause I followed all my friends and some of my friends would talk about politics and stuff. And everyone’s like talking about Trump and blah, blah. And I’m like, I just don’t want to hear this. Like I’m not here for this. And so, um, I started reading some other accounts and they were like, just trim all the people off your feed.

15:53
And I did that. I only followed people that are talking about stuff I liked. So now I only follow about maybe a hundred ish people or so. And man, once I did that, my feed was like awesome stuff. was like all these like really smart investors talking about things. It felt like I got a jump on the news. Like I always knew about things in the news before they were like out on the news news. And I was like, holy crap, this is like a competitive advantage to be on Twitter and have a curated feed. And then I learned about Twitter lists, which is even cooler because you can make a list where you change up your feed. So for example,

16:23
Let’s say don’t want to hear about business and stuff, which is most of what my Twitter is, business investing, et cetera. I have one called sciencey stuff. And so there’s like these cool accounts, like one’s called Science Girl, one’s called Massimo that you can add to lists and then switch to that list. And it’s all cool science facts. so I’m like, like while I’m, you know, sitting on the toilet or something and I have like five minutes to kill, I just pull up the little science list and I’m learning stuff really quick. And so I have different lists. I have one for copywriters. I have one for marketers. I have one for

16:53
crypto at my main feed, is like Elon Musk and Balaji Shubhasanand and all these smart people. And so I feel like that’s my source of news and interaction. And if you respond to some of these bigger accounts, and I have noticed as I’ve got bigger, the responses come faster, I think, because it shows up higher on their feed because it’s like, oh, this is a person with more than two followers.

17:19
that those people will often respond. And if I DM people, almost always get a response back. Interesting. Okay. I actually haven’t tried DMing anyone really. It’s mainly- have reason to. I don’t just say like, hi. I’m just like, hey, I love your stuff. Just wanted to let you know, I support it. Cool. And you’ll get like a cool, thanks man. You’re like, whoa. Like that person saw my thing. That’s pretty neat. What about growing your account? Have you grown it? So I think there’s some pretty, the tactics are very well known. The system is hard.

17:48
So we can talk about what I’m doing starting for the next month. I already have it planned out. let’s do it. Let’s hear it. Yeah. Yeah. So the tactics are such, you write threads about interesting things. So oftentimes take some of your most popular blog posts, turns them into threads. And what happens is threads get a lot of engagement because people click on it. Sometimes they’re too long. So people save them. they leave a comment, say thread roll unwrap this thread and it saves it. But so Twitter sees that as engagement and promotes it higher and higher and higher. So they’re a little bit viral.

18:17
The other thing is you can post random things and sometimes there is some benefit in just posting a lot of random things and sometimes like 20 % of them hit and you don’t really know why. So some of them will get four likes, some will get a thousand. Like it’s just a little bit random sometimes. And so you learn to like just post more and more and just kind of ignore the stats and some stuff hits. How often are posting or what’s your plan? How often are you gonna post? I’ll talk about the plan in a second. And then the other thing is, and the other thing is this.

18:46
have a list of stuff to go through. So there’s a couple of apps like HypeFury, where it’ll give you ideas of what to post by showing you ideas that other popular tweets. And you’re like, oh, I have an idea like that, except about the shipping industry, I have it about copywriting, right? So it’s very helpful to have a swipe file of a popular post. So I have a Twitter doc that I write potential tweets in, much like you probably have a blog post file where you like write blog post ideas.

19:11
Yep. I have that and I’ll write the tweet out and just, you whenever I want to use it, I can use it. And I also have a place where I can go for ideas. I even built one. You got a copyrighting course.com slash Twitter. You’ll see my tweet generator thing I made for myself. Ah, interesting. Okay, cool. Yeah. So you’d actually click generate ideas and I’ll just make three of them and I’ll say, I need to post one of these right now. And that’s what I’ll do. So now let’s talk about my plan. My plan for the rest of the year is to get to a hundred thousand on YouTube. I’m currently at 70,000 something.

19:40
Get to 100,000 on Twitter. currently at 25, 26,000. So that one needs to be amped up quite a bit. And then 200,000 SEO targeted SEO visits, right? So the goal for the year is- Those are some ambitious goals. Well, mean, so YouTube, I’ll probably naturally hit it if I just post semi-regularly. I’m close. If I do what I’m doing right now and don’t change anything on Twitter, I’ll hit-

20:10
35,000, I’d say, by the end of the year. Easy. Like maybe four. I think we’re at the exact same point. I think I’m at like 28 right now. Ooh, you want to, you want to do this with me? Like we can motivate each other. We can talk about some of the secret stuff I’m doing. Sure. Yeah. So here’s, here’s the other goal. I was talking to my friend, uh, Nick Gray, uh, who you may know Nick Gray news party.pro. If you want to want to read his book about throwing a party that that it’s actually pretty good. One of the things that I was going over my goals with him yesterday, it’s like,

20:40
roughly mid-year as we record this. I was like, let me update my goals to see where we’re at. And I was explaining these goals to him and he’s like, well, it sounds like you got all these numbers in place. He’s like, what’s the one thing like that book, the one thing, like what’s the one thing you can do? And I was trying to think about that. It’s like, which one of these would I focus on? And I think that was the wrong question. The right question would be like, what can I do to ensure that I’m going to be able to update these every day? And the thing is, one of my employees,

21:09
I’m going to incentivize her to make sure I complete these things with interesting. Tell me more. Um, that’s, uh, I don’t want to say names or no names. that’s private. But, but there’s like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If all of these are hit and the way that we’re going to hit these, uh, these are doable goals, but the, but consistency is the key. I’ve noticed with all my friends, like, uh, like Noah Kagan has grown his YouTube channel gigantic.

21:37
And me and him were at the same exact level. And the reason he shot up is because he posts all the time. I don’t post anything. There’s nothing. I don’t post anything. Sam Parr grew on Twitter quite a bit, and he was very consistent on it. If you look through it, he’s probably barely missed a day in the last two years. And so consistency is the key. And so I go through, I’m sure you do go through this or some of your audience relates. You go through times where you’re really motivated, and then you drop off. The weekend’s really fun, and you have a lot of stuff planned. So I’m like, how can on those times when I’m not

22:07
participating or not on the internet too much, how can I keep having posts go out? So that’s pre-scheduling them, making sure we have a content calendar of stuff going out for the whole month at beginning of the month. So even if I don’t naturally participate on Twitter natively, at least something gets scheduled to go out, right? And so that’s going to be the plan from now on. And so the plan is we tweet out a lot, we make targeted blog posts. so we made our own little blogging platform for that.

22:37
Go after those and then make videos out of the targeted blog posts. It’s a pretty simple strategy. The key is just the consistency, doing it day after day, week after week, month after month. How many people do you have helping you on this? There will probably be one main person. Okay, just one person. Okay. I could bring in other people. I don’t know if I need to. I’m not sure if I need to yet.

22:59
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23:29
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23:57
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24:09
I’ll tell you my strategy. mean, consistency is like just a given. For me, it’s like the process by making it consistent. And I think I have it down now. everything always starts with a blog post. So I take the time and I write something and that takes a while. But that blog post instantly becomes a YouTube video. And usually I’ll just take the blog post as I write like how I talk. And then just cut out all the fluff stuff and then turn that into a video.

24:37
And then that video can be broken down into multiple TikToks, because short form video is huge right now. And then I post that on TikTok reels and YouTube shorts. The YouTube shorts I haven’t started yet, but I had this pile of like 200 TikToks. I’m just gonna schedule them out on YouTube. And then for Twitter, it’s taken those same blog posts, just the headings, and then turning those into threads once a week. So I tweet three times a day.

25:05
one thread per week, because it’s a pain in the ass to put together the threads. And I’m missing something. Oh yeah, all that stuff can turn into a podcast too. That’s something. Yes. An individual. Also YouTube video is a podcast, but audio. Oh, that’s my other thing that I have on my list for the rest of the year. I’m starting a YouTube podcast. I decided to separate it out from my main channel because I don’t think people watch podcasts as much. Is that accurate? You know what’s interesting? So

25:32
I don’t know if this is going to be a video podcast or not, but behind me is my interview setup. I got some mics and it’s all catches board and all that jazz, right? What I learned was I was bringing, was like, I’m to hire a producer. So I did, I hired a producer, I found one in Austin and every Tuesday he would come over and I would schedule a guest. And much respect to you podcasters, like lining up guests and stuff, man, that’s, that’s work. It’s easy. just texted you Neville and I said, Hey, you want to come on? You said, Yeah, but

26:00
I’m a talker. I’ll talk the whole time. You don’t have to do anything. But for some, like you want to do research, right? If you didn’t know me, like it’d be different. You’d be doing a little research. You’d try to give them some shout outs, all that stuff. So I was preparing these in-person podcasts. And then like, remember you’re on camera. So you got to look like semi-presentable. I have to schedule the guest time and then also the producer’s time to be here at the same time.

26:24
So we’d meet and we’d sit over there and we’d have a nice chat and I’d have all these like two pages of notes that I would ask them questions from. And then you to do the editing and put it out. And you have to do that week after week after week. And what I noticed on my YouTube stats were the interviews, while my audience loved them, got zero new subscribers. So every video I put out that’s just like, hey, it’s Neville here and I’m gonna teach you this little thing about copywriting. That video will get lots of subscribers, new subscribers to my YouTube channel.

26:54
interviews did not like they wouldn’t go viral. They wouldn’t like, um, capture people’s imagination. So I’m not sure what the reason was. Maybe I suck. Maybe the content sucked. Um, but people in our audience liked it, but it didn’t grow the pie. It was very interesting. know, it’s funny is I, I see a YouTube channels like Rogan whatnot and they’re killing it on YouTube, but he’s got celebrities. He’s got Jamie Foxx on there. I’ve got, I’ve got Ross from siege media. I know he runs a huge company. He’s not some slub.

27:24
But at the same time, it’s like, we’re talking about SEO, right? Like that’s not the biggest interview in the world. I think, yeah, to go viral on YouTube, you have to talk about general stuff. Like let’s look at Noah, right? He’s talking about how people got rich, like how they made a million bucks, whatever. That’s appealing to everybody. Whereas when I talk about e-commerce, like my overall pie is smaller, but there’s still a lot of people interested in that.

27:50
It’s a smaller pie, which is, you you’re not going to get like mainstream necessarily. I bet if you talked about how to become a millionaire with e-commerce and no money, like that kind of video will get a lot of views. don’t know if it’s the exact right person you want necessarily. So I talk with Noah all the time about this dichotomy of like, you know, sometimes he doesn’t like doing like knocking on millionaires doors, but those are the ones that get a lot of views. There’s this like, what’s your ultimate goal? And if your goal is just to try to get to a million people on YouTube, that’s probably the way to do it.

28:19
but it’s not always the fun, they’re not always fun for you to do. So. I know his personality too, but he’s going to continue doing them because he always does what works. He does. Yeah. And it’s where he does. He does some, did like one, like he really loved doing this one where he went on a fishing trip with a buddy and they talked and stuff like that. And that video got like 13,000 views, which for him is very little. Right. Yeah. So he really loved that and cherished that time. But then it’s just like,

28:48
I’m to go up to Yacht owners and ask them what they do for a living. And it’s funny, once we were at his house and we were just like, let’s watch both videos and we watched the fishing video and he was like, man, I love this. And we’re all kind of like, it wasn’t really that great of a video. Like, I know you probably had fun cause it’s like your buddy meant something to you, but for me to sit here, waste my time watching it, I was like, I didn’t really learn anything. It’s just kind of like you chatting with your buddy. was like, whatever. But then we watched like knocking on yacht.

29:15
owner’s things and like there’s like some guy smoking a cigar and he’s like, yeah, I own a carpet factory. You’re like, oh, I think I just learned something from that guy. Like, I didn’t know you can make money with a carpet factory. Like it actually was a better video. So I don’t, I don’t know. no, I’ve, I’ve watched all of his YouTube videos actually. And I actually liked those the best cause you never know what the next guy is going to say. And they all look different. They’re all completely different. Like these million, but do know they’ll film for sometimes like two days straight to get a 12 minute video? Is that wild?

29:45
I can imagine it’s a pain in the butt. And I know he’s investing a ton of money in his channel. Yeah, he spends, he spends a lot of money as a whole team working on it. It’s a lot of, mean, just to do that amount of editing and stuff by yourself, but dude, get this. Here’s some insights from, by the way, Kagan is one of my best friends in the world. So I probably talk about him a lot, but he has an interesting character to hear about. And one interesting thing he’s been doing all these, going to some YouTube meetups and stuff.

30:10
And then I watch a lot of these YouTubers and listen to them talk. like MKBHD, you know, that guy that is one of the top reviewers on YouTube, he does 99 or 98 % of his own editing on all his videos. That’s crazy, man. Isn’t that wild? He has like an entire team and this guy’s still doing his videos. Graham Stepan is editing most, almost all his videos himself. Yeah, he’s got two guys doing it, helping them now though, I think, right?

30:34
I think, but that’s more for like setup and stuff of the podcast and just organizing and tasks. He still does a lot of editing and a lot of the work himself. And I always find it interesting. Some of the top ones are, uh, they start of filmography people for the most part. So they’re really good with cameras and editing. it’s kind of like what they love doing, but it is kind of interesting that some of those top people are still doing a lot of the work themselves. And it just reminded me of a Seinfeld Jerry Seinfeld quote. He used to be in the editing room for, uh, for the show Seinfeld.

31:04
He’s just like, you have to be in the editing room because that’s what makes or breaks it. Like you could have like a bad, you could film a like bad acting, but turn it into something good through good editing. So he was there for every second of that show, chopping it up. Um, and it’s really interesting whenever I hand over my videos to an editor, um, like they come out good and some of them are great, but at the same time, I always think I could do better myself. Like, I think I know better on how to edit it, but it just takes up so much time. So I thought that was kind of interesting to understand.

31:34
I started out editing my podcasts and videos. I just hate the work and it takes forever. Like a five minute video might take me like hours to edit. I know. I think we’re getting to a point kind of like where AI is like almost getting good enough to do it. Like I think we’re a few years away, but, um, but like some of the social platforms like Instagram, you can upload a bunch of videos and it’ll create like a reel for you. And it’s like, it kind of like knows where to pick spots. Like it knows where the action is. And it’s like,

32:00
We might be getting there. That could be pretty awesome. Where like this could be a fully edited produced video with subtitles like all by computer soon. That’d be awesome. So your strategy basically is to be everywhere, right? Yeah, I think so. Right. Coming on. And then you mentioned early on that you’d started that over your website. So how would you be gathering emails if you don’t have your own website? Well, I think like, like I use the convert kit, not necessarily a plug, but that’s what I use. And you can actually just, you can have a page called like, you know,

32:31
ck.com slash eight to just the landing page you’re saying exactly like any of those things will do it lead pages MailChimp all do that kind of stuff now so I don’t think it’s necessary that you have to do that have to have like a website in fact the reason I say if I was starting over like meaning I didn’t have an idea for an online business that’s what I mean I’m like brand new I just have a job and I’m like hey I want to like make some money online I’ve been listening to Steve I’ve been listening to other people I would like to I would like to start a business

32:58
Instead of starting a website, buying a domain and setting up hosting and learning WordPress or learning Shopify and all that stuff. I would probably start talking, like joining communities on Twitter and start participating with people, figuring out where I can like either add value or sell a cool product. And then I would eventually get a website, but I would not do it first. I think what happens is when you buy a domain, you get set on this website. It’s like set in stone. What you’re going to do. It’s like, I’m only going to sell yellow legal pads. So I bought yellow legal pads.com now it’s like,

33:28
I feel like you’re almost stuck in that lane. Whereas I feel like what’s social, would have an account with just my name, Neville Madora, and then chat on that, participate on that. And then once I find something that’s working and I was able to sell a couple of them, like on the side, just validate the idea, then I would buy a domain or something. That would be my strategy then. That community that you run, is that a paid community? Is that people signing up for your class or is it just anyone who wants to join? Paid. So eventually, I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen this. You were a little bit ahead of the game.

33:58
with your community, but community is becoming a bigger thing. I just think the limiting factor right now, the technology, technology out there sucks. All the forums suck. They’re hard. You have to developers. You’re quite a technical guy. So you were able to do it early, but there’s solutions like circle.so and stuff that are coming out. But what happens is everyone has a course. So I had a lot of courses. We sold them only through AppSumo for a while. I sold them through myself after a while of that too. And what happens is you start a course and then people buy it, let’s say for 69 bucks, right?

34:26
So then a bunch of people buy it, but then all the people on your list buy it. And they’re kind of tired about hearing about one thing. So then you sell another course and you make another course. Now you’ve got 10 different courses that you sell and people are confused on which course you should buy. Cause a lot of times there’s overlap. So I would sell like an email writing course and a copywriting course. And people are like, well, don’t I have to know copyright and do email writing? So I’m like, yeah, there is a lot of overlap. So then what happens is course creators will bundle all of their stuff. So then they’ll say, okay, instead of 69 bucks, you get 400 bucks for all of them, right?

34:55
And then what happens is people say, well, that’s too much money. I only want some of them. So they say, okay, fine. We’ll do a monthly price, right? So you pay 69 bucks a month and then you get access to all of them. And then you just stay on like that. And then also course creators like recurring income because recurring income is great, stable, et cetera. So that’s the, that’s the normal course that happened. And so I started doing a community style thing where it’s like a monthly price for all the courses. And we kind of had this WordPress forum for a bit.

35:23
but it’s so clunky and I’m sure you use WordPress. I use the WordPress. They’re terrible. Yeah, it’s not great man. Like they’re not designed for large amounts of people. They look, they look pretty on demo, but then they get very hard to manage. And so I was using one and I was like, Oh my God, this is brutal. And so I went to a full on like forum software and kind of backed it into my core software. Um, because all your core software has to do is like host videos, right? It’s like a Wistia link. And then I went commenting and stuff to be more native.

35:51
So that’s why I went full on like forum software. And then the forum software could also handle the billing. And for a while I had this weird thing where it’s like the blog was part of it, but then you get billed on the thing. And then I had to build this SSO bridge between the two and that the bridge was very unstable. Like if an update happened, like it might, you know, not bill people or something like that. It was, very unstable. And so I was like, I gotta go to one system. And so that’s why I think the next solution for a lot of people, a lot of course creators is

36:20
They’re going to use something like Circle.so, which I think is probably the best one out there. It’s like making a private Facebook group, but you could also run courses and web pages off of it. And it also has community natively built in. So people can comment on stuff. Everyone sees a feed. You could email your members. It’s pretty nice. So I think that’s going to be the next generation of community. If I had to start all over again, I might just make a Circle.so page. I’m not an investor of theirs, unfortunately, but I think it’s a good product.

36:50
I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about a free resource that I offer on my website that you may not be aware of. If you are interested in starting your own online store, I put together a comprehensive six day mini course on how to get started in ecommerce that you should all check out. It contains both video and text based tutorials that go over the entire process of finding products to sell all the way to getting your first sales online. Now this course is free and can be obtained at mywifequitterjob.com slash free.

37:19
just sign up right there on the front page via email and I’ll send you the course right away. Once again, that’s mywifequitterjob.com slash free. Now back to the show.

37:30
You know what’s funny is I had a forum and the biggest problem was that people were never logged in. They actually had to log into it. So that’s why I actually moved everything to Facebook because a lot of people just have their Facebook pages open. Did you have that problem? We had a Facebook group for a while. The problem is Facebook is very distracting. And then also for us, I hate to say that we’re different, but we are different in the sense that people are posting 20 page sales page letters. You cannot do that on Facebook. And also there’s no formatting.

38:00
Right? So sales pages have images and left justified. You cannot do any of that formatting even remotely close on Facebook. So I had to get a different solution. However, if I was just doing a basic group, you are totally right. The network effects of Facebook are there. The network. I can see what the nature of what you teach, you’re evaluating copy, right? And formatting and everything. So nothing is just a comment. It’s a long pieces of copy. It’s a lot of images. Yeah.

38:28
I get it. All that actually is really great content in itself because people want to read other people’s copy, right? I can see. Okay. Makes sense. So imagine you’re wanting to get your homepage reviewed, but it’s like five pages long. Can you post that on Facebook? No, right. You literally cannot post it on Facebook. And it wouldn’t look right. It would just be like blank text, like raw text with no images, no formatting, no nothing, no headers. Yeah. Right. So we literally could not do it. And so that’s why I had to like build our own solution. I mean, we

38:58
We build on top of something, but like very heavily modified for our purpose. What do think about discord for building community? Like all the young kids are using it. So yeah, it’s interesting. It’s like, it’s like a, like a never ending slack feed, but you can also do voice. So I could just go on and Hey, you want to chat? then look like obviously it’s working well. So I think there’s some value in it, but I think you have to ask yourself, is that the kind of life I want to live? And like, I don’t want this never ending slack feed of constant stuff. And once again,

39:28
The problem is people cannot post their copy. Right in your case. Yes. And here’s another thing. Tell me if you’ve had this with your form, what happens in the community is sometimes there’s really good threads, right? There’s really good threads. And if you have just a discord server where it’s like a raw text file, just growing and growing, you kind of like a two days after something cool happens, you kind of forget about it. You can’t find it anymore. It’s really hard. Whereas we have a thing where can like tag threads is like this happened or tag them as SEO and people can go read that thread later to see how it was solved.

39:58
Right. So I’ll bring up that story. I’ll be like, Oh yeah, this other person had a very similar site. Look what they did and I could link it. And it’s kind of cool because everything’s contained in that thread. So, um, there’s so much stuff that happens in the forum that it’s nice to have separate threads where we can reference later and come back to, um, or make content out of that later. Whereas in a discord server or like your Slack, it’s just this growing feed that, yeah, no, that makes sense. And it’s just constant. It’s constant pings on your phone. Um, I don’t, I don’t like that. I need like some concentration time.

40:28
This is why I don’t like social, but, uh, what’s your greatest source of leads right now? Greatest source of leads. think that it evenly splits between the website, YouTube, then so social leads are hard to track, right? They are, unless they click your link in the bio, guess. Exactly. But that’s not always how it happens. It’s like, they’ll Google my name and then sign up to copywriting course. But I don’t know that that’s from social. I consider, like, cause I just noticed the trend.

40:56
when I started doing TikTok especially, that my direct traffic from people just, on Ahrefs it tells you how many people approximately are searching for you a month. I saw that dramatically increase. When I got featured on CNBC, the search traffic for Bumblebee linens shot up like 20X during that period. It went down after that obviously, but yeah, it was crazy. It’s crazy. you can barely attribute that to social traffic.

41:25
That’s a point. What’s your greatest source? SEO by far. Yeah, by far. And you mentioned you were trying to build that up yourself, right? Well, so we had built that up to… Right, you had that. Yeah. We had that. So yeah, that was great. We are going to… So the reason that we lost it, by the way, is we went from CopywritingCourse.com with Ks to CopywritingCourse with Cs, like I mentioned. What we had to do…

41:52
By the way, we found an error in Google. We hired this high level consultant. He’s like, this is actually an error with Google. Because Bing picked up on what we were doing and was cool with it. And so what we had to do is disavow every link that had ever been pointed to that site. And they had some good links. So that’s why we’re like, oh, we won’t lose a CNN link. So we had to disavow every link. And then we got our traffic back. Not all of it, but about a quarter of it. And then the other thing that kind of messed us up a little bit, but not too much, was we moved from WordPress to our own blogging platform.

42:20
Oh, yeah. And so that so that once again, we’re just like, hey, Google, we’re changing everything, right? Like even though the URL structure changed a little bit. And so so that dinged us slightly, but not all that much. And now through the rest of the year, I’m getting back to I’m pretty confident I could do it. 200,000 SEO per month. Yeah. Targeted this time, though. Not not random generators. So the other thing that’s happened in like the last several years is Google’s drastically changed their algorithm. Mm hmm.

42:50
And so I’ve actually gone through and rewritten a ton of posts to conform with the way Google expects content to be. Which sucks. I I I try to do two a week. And it’s it’s pretty miserable because it takes all the creativity out of the writing also. I believe 40 percent of Google searches right now are no click searches. Which sucks, Well, it’s true. It does. But but then again, that’s the game you got to play.

43:20
Exactly. But but so it’s kind of funny. I have a duality on this one as a consumer as Neville Madora searching for things. Some of some like how do you make an apple pie? I don’t need your 19 minute video on how your grandmother used to bake a pie. Show me the damn thing. Like I just need to know the rough ingredients. I’m just trying to get a high level overview. And Google shows that to me. Thanks. And I leave I don’t have to click anything. That’s really nice. On the other hand, there are some things that I want to go deeper into. And that’s where a blog post comes in for.

43:50
So it’s actually kind of in a way doing you an interesting favor of like, instead of having someone go to your site and just leave and bounce, they’re only sending like the really dedicated ones. So in a way it’s an interesting way to think about it. I mean, it totally makes sense on Google’s part and from the consumer, but from a marketer standpoint, you can’t get their email unless they actually go on your site. That’s correct. It is harder, but there are all these other avenues like YouTube and stuff that you can like directly tell people to sign up and stuff now.

44:19
That’s kind of nice. Also, SEO is a bit of a zero sum game, right? If you want to type in like, what are the best ecommerce platforms, guess what? It’s only that one top spot, baby. And so it’s a zero sum game and a lot of software companies will come in with very high budgets and make really good content, like shockingly good content. And so it’s your job to like compete and make the best posts in the world for that thing. And so that’s kind of what we’re doing the next couple of months. You should see it.

44:47
Yeah, I’m curious. by the way. We don’t compete on the same. We don’t talk about the same stuff. No, no, no, no, not compete on keywords because that would be counterproductive because we’re in the same spot. We should compete on like just numbers of like how many traffic you want. We’re basically the same spot on Twitter, right? Did you have roughly 25K followers or something? Yeah, I think about like 20. Let me check. Actually, hold on. Yeah. Something in that frame. It’s just like we’re in the same ballpark. Yeah. Let’s do.

45:17
You know what? Perfect. So I’m probably much the exact same. You know what the secret thing that a lot of people that have grown on their Twitter the last couple of years are doing, right? They’re in text message groups or WhatsApp groups together. And they say, okay, we’re all going to post every day and we’ll share each other’s content. So instead of my 25K, if you interact on mine, your people see that comment in their feed also. So it’s like, potentially get in front of your audience too and vice versa.

45:46
is actually I had deals like that early on when I was growing with three other people where you just retweet, right? Yeah. Is that what you’re talking about? I’m happy to take part in that. I think we have overlapping audiences there for sure. Yeah, that would be fun. This is how the sausage is made behind the scenes. It is actually, if anyone’s listening, this is why you need to get out and actually meet people. Yeah. Or even in the YouTube world, you see all these YouTubers doing collaborations with each other, like another science channel will do an experiment with another science channel.

46:16
or they’ll be like, okay, I’m let my friend at XYZ channel take over this video. They do a lot of collaborations. That’s how they grow. And then we’re probably pretty similar in YouTube channel size. So I’m at 91,000. You’re at 70 something thousand. I’m gonna hit a hundred K in like two months. I’m estimating, but we’re in the same ballpark. We should do co-labs as well there. Well, what are you, what are you doing for growing the channel? Just posting on YouTube. Yeah. YouTube is it’s a combination of SEO and like

46:44
to get down to brass tacks, it’s really like clickable titles and thumbnails is really all it is. Yeah. Huh? So how are you doing it? I’ve noticed the best thing because what I guarantee this will be the case. I could predict the future already that if you look at your YouTube stats right now, it’s going to be like three to five videos that are bringing in all your subs.

47:07
There is probably five videos that are bringing in most of my subs. See, I predicted the future already. then I posted those a long time ago. Exactly. So, so you know what mine are? Here’s, here’s a funny thing and a cool thing. A funny thing is all my top videos don’t have my face in them. Really? Yeah. They’re all me talking, reading a blog post. So for example, how to become a copywriter, it has hundreds of thousands of views. It’s just me reading the post into my microphone and then had an editor make the video.

47:38
I have to watch that. Is it an animation or what is it? It’s just like fly-ins of different emails, a couple of animations here and there. Yeah. Interesting. And the reason that those become top posts is this, because I used to rank, I would rank number one for how to become a copywriter when the site was with Ks. And people come to that website and I put that video at the top so they would click the video, stay on the page for a long time. So Google was like, wow, these people are staying on the page for long time. We should keep them out number one.

48:07
And because they’re watching the video for a long time also, YouTube would recommend it to others. So every single day, you know, a hundred plus people were clicking that video. So it’s racking up views day after day after day. So it ranked at number one for SEO and for, for the video SEO, like YouTube search. And so it just kept, was like this nice virtuous cycle that happens. Like your post gets a lot of subscribes, email subscribers, and then it gets a lot of YouTubers. And because people watch discovering it on YouTube,

48:36
they end up clicking on my webpage and then subscribing. it is nice cycle that happens. And I wanted to have that with like, what I’ve learned is like, you can really have that with like five videos and that can make or break your channel. Yep. mean, that’s the same case for SEO and blog posts, right? Like probably 10%, 10 to 20 % of your blog posts are driving most of the traffic to your site. I think for SEO, it’s often even, it’s more pronounced than video SEO. A lot of times I’ll look at clients’ pages.

49:04
Like, yeah, we get a hundred thousand visits a month and it’s like 90 % go to one page. Like their one post. That’s awesome. We’ll rank for thousands of different keywords. Yep. And Google is so smart. knows what people are trying to search for when they type in like a weird search. Yeah. And all those queries will go to that one page and they think like, Oh, we have a hundred thousand. I’m like, if you lose this ranking, you have no more traffic. If you do things right, it.

49:33
doesn’t have to be that way. So my goal is to spread the love. Like I just want every post that I put out to be on the front page for something with reasonable volume. The only downside is it’s like you don’t control Google, right? So one update could potentially remove search or it could put you at number 11 or you can be number four for a search, but there’s so much no click searches options like shopping options, all that kind of stuff, maps, local listings that even if you’re listing number four,

50:01
in Google position number four, you’re technically on the second page, which means you get no traffic. I mean, I think that’s the case for everything, right? Social platforms, everything. You’re kind of at the mercy unless you have your email list. That’s the only thing you really control the email list. Even then that kind of Google actually, even that it’s kind of, yeah, you’re right. It’s kind of cool. Cause it all 70 % of all email goes through SMS. How’s it? about that SMS right now is, know, I never, I don’t get a lot of SMS marketing. I think the reason is because SMS is interruptive.

50:28
Whereas email, you can spam my email and I only see it when I check it. Whereas SMS, it’s like I’m in the middle of a call or with my family and you interrupt me. Oh man, people hate SMS spam. I send SMS when I want someone to take action, if they’re to make them attend like a live presentation that I’m giving or something. I only do it for content once a month. For the store though, I text once a week and it converts 10X better than email.

50:54
I will say like the email stuff is what I’m most protective of. That’s what I was kind of known for with copywriting the email things. So I’m the most protective of my quality on my email list because we get like pretty high, we have very high open rates. And so that’s my secret weapon, the email list. Because when I send something out to the email list, that’s where I can guarantee that I’m to get clicks on something, views, likes, all that kind of stuff. I make sure, here’s an interesting thing I teach inside our copywriting course. There’s a, there’s a,

51:22
ratio I call the 70 % content, 30 % sales. If you stick to that ratio, people will never get mad at you. So if you only sell them stuff like, Hey, go here and buy this, go here and buy this, people get mad at you. But if you give them 70 % good content and only about 30 % sales on your email, people will stick around because they’re getting more value than being pitched. so almost every email can have some sales in it. So long as you make it max 30%. Um, you could occasionally do obviously a full hard sell, of course.

51:51
but you have to come at them with other good stuff in their email that they enjoy. Do you do a newsletter every week by chance? I do. How does that work compared to your normal emails? Oh, sorry. What’s the distinction? Like Tim Ferriss does like five Bullet Fridays or something. I just have a newsletter of the content that I put out that week. Yeah, I don’t do something like James Clear or…

52:16
or I started one called the stupid email. It stands for swipe thought uplifting picture. on it. I’m on your list. Yeah. Yeah. It does. It does really well. I would highly suggest if you’re to start a newsletter, you don’t have to have an acronym for it like I do, but I would say have a format laid out. So three to five sections. And the way to find it is you see what you normally post that does well on social media. So that does well and that you like. So for me, I post all these old ads. I love old ads, like Ogle the ads and stuff.

52:45
And people tend to respond to them pretty well. So the number one spot on the email was a swipe. And then interesting was just like, you know, Twitter, you post interesting things here and there. So it’s a random thought. And I do a lot of drawings. So the ending is always a drawing. And that format and it goes out every Friday at a certain time, like people really look forward to it. get the most responses to any email, the newsletter. How do you when you say it’s working? How do you define working?

53:12
People click it has a very high open rate and people respond to it a lot. I go by anecdotal evidence of how many people respond to it By risk. Okay. Can you just put some numbers to that like what? Is it a percent to open rate will be between so between 30 to 40 percent, which is which is quite high 40 percent of the very high end 30 percent of the low end and then clicks Depending on if I have them click my goal is not to get them to click. Sometimes there’s no links at all

53:40
So the clicks are quite high if I want them to click. So thousands of clicks. So if there’s a sponsor or something I want them to click, I can get people to click. And then responses, I’ll get like 20 to 50 responses on something. And if I ask people to respond, like I say, hey, respond to this with this question, could be hundreds. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Maybe I’ll give that. I mean, that’s yet another thing to put on my list that’s gonna be hard to measure though, in terms of It is harder to measure. Yeah.

54:11
Dude, yeah, it was great catching up with you, No, it was a fun time. We talked a lot about a lot of stuff and yes, we should definitely compete. It seems like we’re doing similar things with our content and we’re even selling something similar. mean, yours is copywriting on e-commerce. Yeah, it’s pretty different. mean, e-commerce is, yeah, I used to be in e-commerce a long time ago, but I’m not, we do copywriting for e-commerce sites quite often, but we don’t like actually do like e-commerce stuff. Yeah.

54:39
Well, actually, where can people find you if they need help with copywriting? course.com is the main place you go to Twitter type my name in the door or just nevmed. And then I also have like a book. This will teach you how to write better. That still shockingly sells. I would like to like redo it at some point. I can’t believe I didn’t even know you had a book. What is it called again? This book will teach you to write better. Huh? I wrote this on a work in 2013 and it’s still to this day. It makes like a thousand bucks a month. Isn’t that weird?

55:08
My goodness. I to sell, I tried to give it away for free, but because it’s a physical book, you have to charge something. The lowest price you can charge is $5. So I charged five bucks for it, but I would like to redo the book or like do the second edition and then charge 20 bucks for it. I got a book coming out. Really? Yeah. Uh, I got a public Harper Collins is publishing it, but I just actually turned in the manuscript literally yesterday. Oh, wow. Congrats. So, uh, and so guess a year from now, maybe it’ll come.

55:37
Nice. Oh my God. That’s why I did self publishing and so much faster. Yeah. I know. I just want to see it in a bookstore so I can take my kids there. I have different ego based motivations. Also, if you could sell 10,000 books, you could basically get on New York times bestseller. I’m going to try. I’m going to try my best to get on there. Whatever happens happens. But yeah, it’s right. It’s kind of a messed up thing because it’s not just the number of books. It’s like where you sell the books. So if you, if the books sell, sell on Amazon, it’s like different than if it sells inside of a Barnes and Noble.

56:07
Isn’t that weird? exactly. mean, very bizarre way to do it. So you can game it, but it’s it’s plus you have to pass the committee. Like I, you know, I’m just going to put my best foot forward and see what happens. But yeah, I just want to make sure we Well, we’ll talk about it on our joint Twitter. Sweet, man. All right. Well, take care of them. Great chatting, man. Take care. Bye.

56:29
Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now if you want to learn copywriting in a fun and entertaining way, go check out Neville’s stuff over at CopywritingCourse.com. For more information about this episode, go to MyWifeQuitterJob.com slash episode 426. Once again, I want to thank Clavio, which is my email marketing platform of choice for e-commerce merchants. You can easily put together automated flows like an abandoned card sequence, a post purchase flow, a win back campaign. Basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to MyWifeQuitterJob.com slash KLAVIO.

56:59
Once again, that’s mywifequitterjob.com slash KLAVIO. I also want to thank Postscript, which is my SMS marketing platform of choice for ecommerce merchants. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base. SMS is next big own marketing platform and you can sign up for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-R-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. Now we talk about how is these tools on my blog. If you’re interested in starting your own ecommerce store,

57:27
head on over to mywifecoderjob.com and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.