00:30
She never took any funding and she bootstrapped her business completely from the ground up. And today she’s going to teach us how she did it. But before we begin, I want to thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode. Postscript is my SMS or text messaging provider that I use for e-commerce and it’s crushing it for me. I never thought that people will want marketing text messages, but it works. In fact, my tiny SMS list is performing on par with my email list, which is easily 10x bigger. Anyway, Postscript specializes in text message marketing for e-commerce.

00:58
and you can segment your audience just like email. It’s an inexpensive solution, converts like crazy, and you can try it for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. I also want to thank Klaviyo for sponsoring this episode. Always excited to talk about Klaviyo because they’re the email marketing platform that I use for my e-commerce store, and I depend on them for over 30 % of my revenue. Now you’re probably wondering why Klaviyo and not another provider.

01:25
Well, Klaviyo is the only email platform out there that is specifically built for e-commerce stores, and here’s why it’s so powerful. Klaviyo can track every single customer who has shopped in your store and exactly what they bought. So let’s say I want to send out an email to everyone who purchased a red handkerchief in the last week. Easy. Let’s say I want to set up a special autoresponder sequence to my customers depending on what they bought. Piece of cake, and there’s full revenue tracking on every email sent. Klaviyo is the most powerful email platform that I’ve ever used, and you can try them for free over at klaviyo.com slash mywife.

01:55
That’s KLAVIO.com slash my wife. And then finally, I want to mention my other podcast that I released my partner Tony. And unlike this one, where I interviewed successful entrepreneurs in e-commerce, the profitable audience podcast covers all things related to content creation and building an audience. No topic is off the table and we tell like how it is in a raw and entertaining way. So be sure to check out the profitable audience podcast on your favorite podcast app. Now onto the show.

02:29
Welcome to the My Wife Quarter Job podcast. Today I have Tori Gerbig on the show and Tori and I were recently featured on the Ashley Banfield show where we shared some tips on how to start an online business. And Tori is the founder of pinklily.com, which is a nine figure business that sells clothing and boutique fashion. Now, what I find impressive about Tori is that she grew up in a working class family, nothing out of the ordinary, and turned a side hobby of selling clothes into a hundred million dollar company. And within her first year of business,

02:59
Pink Lily hit the multi-million dollar mark and it’s grown to a business of over 200 employees. She’s been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, Huffing Post, and she was in Inc 5000 Company in 2018. And what I actually admire more is that she is a mother of three and she works with her husband just like I do with my wife and our business. And in this episode, we are going to find out exactly how she did it. And with that, welcome to the show. Tori, how are doing? Hi, how are you? Thank you so much for having me on today.

03:27
Yeah, know, Tori, so I actually teach a class on e-commerce and what I always tell people is that clothing is actually one of the hardest types of products to sell online. Absolutely. So I’m just very curious how you got started. So it kind of was by accident. I went to school for marketing and sales, not fashion. And I knew that I really wanted to sell a product. So I learned how to do outside sales. I thought, you know, I would do

03:53
personal selling, maybe medical device selling something along the way. I actually went into insurance industry and it was okay. I was in it for over five years, but after my husband and I got married, we really weren’t making much money combined. I had no experience. It was right after, you know, a recession was going on. We’re talking 2009 to 2010 when we got married. So really hard to find a job. Um, come 2012.

04:19
We were just really struggling and could not make ends meet. So we started selling items on eBay and Etsy and started out with very random products. I’m talking like golf clubs, USB, hard drives, random stuff. And it did pretty well. We sold items on eBay and Etsy for about a year, year and a half. And then fast forward to 2013, I was pregnant with my son, looking over my benefits, my maternity leave options.

04:47
and freaking out about having unpaid maternity leave. So that was something that made me so nervous. So once my son was born, really were like, look, we’ve got to pick up this online selling just to supplement our income. So I invested a little bit of money, I think maybe just a couple hundred dollars in some little girl boutique clothing and some adult boutique clothing and started a Facebook group at that time. The Facebook group,

05:12
was primarily just local people from my town, but it grew pretty quickly and it grew from, you know, a couple hundred girls to over 10,000 women by the time I started back to after my maternity leave. So I started selling clothing on there. I didn’t really sell clothing on eBay or Etsy. It was just mostly through the Facebook group. So I was showing the items. I was PayPal invoicing them. I was shipping the items, all of this at nighttime after I worked my full-time job. And after I got my son to bed,

05:40
And so I really didn’t sleep much at all in 2013, like that last quarter. And at the end of about November, my husband’s like, we cannot continue doing it. It’s so manual. We have to start a website. Like this is too manual. You PayPal invoicing people, you going to stamps.com, creating the labels and it’s just too much. So we are going to start a website. We’re going to take the money that we’ve made, the profits from selling on online so far. And we’re going to just start this website.

06:08
So December 31st, January 1st of 2014, we kicked off pinklily.com. It was really a right out of the box, horrible website. Like it wasn’t good at all. So slow, site speed, everything. We had no prior experience, but it was like just him and I who did it. And we were like, okay, our goal for the year is $50,000 in revenue. That will help pay off our credit card debt and some of our student loans. I’ll still work my full-time job.

06:37
He’ll work his full-time job. It’s just a side hustle. By month two, we had already hit the 50,000 and then by six months in, we hit a million dollars in revenue. I walked away from my job in April of 2014. It was terrifying. Everybody was like, no, you can’t quit your job with benefits just for an online site. And then my husband walked away from his job in July that same year.

07:03
And then rounding out in December that year, we hit $4 million in revenue and had seven full-time employees. all from like just this starting in our house and by the end of year one, having, you know, a team of seven and hitting $4 million in revenue very quickly. In the first seven months, we actually still were in our house too. So like we were packaging the orders up to the very like first million dollars of sales all on my dining room table. Tori, what’s funny is your story is almost exactly like mine. We started on eBay.

07:32
We were just selling some handkerchiefs and they were running it all over my house. And then my wife, she didn’t like her job. And when we had our kid, we were like, okay, we want to stay at home with the kids. And we ran everything out of the house. And our goal was actually $50,000 our first year also. We hit it really quickly. And then my wife was like, okay, we got to start a website. Cause I was making the rounds at this post office carrying like a car full of boxes and they all knew me and they actually hated me.

08:00
I’d occupy the line for like a long time, right? But it’s funny. Let’s take it back to the beginning. I’m very curious. So where did you source those first clothes for Etsy and eBay and that Facebook group? Yeah, so we I worked with some vendors out of LA to get some products and mostly for eBay. I think one of the biggest things we had that sold in 2013 were bubble necklaces. So a lot of jewelry really did well on eBay. Same with Etsy. So Etsy also

08:30
monogrammed on the side like to I was like, well, I’m gonna buy a monogram machine. do that too. Yeah. So that was very time consuming. I realized that was not the best use of my time. I sold that monogram machine. So yeah, it was just kind of like scarves and jewelry mostly. And I sourced them from, you know, places, LA, China, fashion district or do it fashion. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cool. And then these are not with your brand on them, though, right? These are just

08:59
Already made. OK. Already to sell turnkey products. Yeah. So how does one grow a Facebook group so quickly, actually? So you mentioned in the beginning it was just Kentucky folks, right? How did you attract other people? So I think at the time, of course, the timing was great for Facebook and it was, you know, back before the shifted where now it’s more paid placement. was very organic back then. So it was easy. But I also have a social media

09:29
I have a social media or I have a marketing degree. So social media was always something that I loved and I learned it as quickly as I can when a new platform comes out. So Facebook was something that I knew very well and I knew certain strategies of how to grow it, know, build it as a community, you know, do fun giveaways, get women excited about the product, do the live videos or the,

09:52
photos, you know, and kind of just go off what works well. If you see that this photo is getting a lot of response, continue to do photos similar to that style and, and just kind of like taking it. It was very scrappy too. And I think that people loved it. It wasn’t like this put together beautiful photos, literally like an iPhone photo of me in my house wearing the product. And I think women just could relate to that a little easier than just that, you know, your typical models that you see on Victoria secret or places like that.

10:22
type sites. So were people just finding your group through word of mouth or were you advertising it? It’s just word of mouth. It was a group. So it wasn’t you couldn’t do paid ads for a group at the time. So it was really just like by having people add more people to the group. So can you kind of walk me through like how often were you posting and how did you build a community? So I would post several times a day. I think that’s the strategy to with any good social media platform is to

10:49
make sure you’re consistent with your posting. But building the community, was always on there. So even while I was working my full-time job, I was answering girls questions and they felt like they can ask me, hey, how would you style this or what would you recommend size I go with? And really to like give them that personal shopping experience almost from the very beginning and to also like allow them to tell me what they wanted to buy and what they were looking for for us to carry and such. really

11:17
to listen to them and always put them first, really helped to elevate it. And that’s kind of been behind the brand since the very beginning, as we always put the customers first and foremost. So were you going live in your group or was live available back then? Probably not, right? Live wasn’t available back when it very first started, but it quickly became available. So yeah, we’ve been doing live since the beginning of live creation. is Facebook group still around? Are you still active in the group or?

11:45
group? No, I closed it down after we started Pink Lily and then we started a Pink Lily group right after and our Pink Lily group has I 120,000 women in that private group. So our sales, I imagine since you have a website now, you don’t do sales directly into the group, but is that a way to like showcase new products and get feedback? Yeah, so we do it. We showcase products, but

12:09
We also definitely get feedback on like, are you wanting for us to buy for fall? Or, know, what kind of styles would you like us to carry? And really giving them more of that inside behind the scenes feel. But also the biggest thing that does so well in our group is we allow all of our customers to post their own photos. So all of them are actually running the group for us by posting content because they’re excited to share what the dress looks like on over their outfit. And then all these women are supportive on them saying, oh, you look great.

12:38
how does this fit and they’re answering questions and they’re together on this group and it works really well that way for us. Cool. So are the moderators of the group just super fans of your brand for the most part? Yes. We actually have, most of them are workers here and then yes, anyone is allowed to post in the group. We approve it. We approve it here internally. Right. Nice. Okay. So you go from this Facebook group, it gets out of hand because you’re manually invoicing everyone. You start this site,

13:08
It looks bad. It’s slow. How do you get your first sales on your site? Is it just driving through the group to the site? Yeah. So at that time, right after we launched the Facebook or the website, we launched a Facebook page and that’s where primarily most of the sales would came through in year one was all through Facebook. So I did not have any knowledge of Google ads. have no knowledge of anything else. Instagram really wasn’t big yet.

13:33
Pinterest, probably some too actually. We did go viral on Pinterest a few times our first year. So Pinterest and Facebook were those key drivers. The Facebook page, I did start doing paid ads on there by the end of January, 2014. But again, I kind of taught myself all of that with not having background knowledge on any like paid placement, paid social. Right, right. So, but to go from, did you say you hit 4 million in that first year you said? Yep.

14:00
Okay, so how does one go from just a couple hundred thousand to four million? Is that ads or is it just the size of your group? Like how do you grow exponentially like that so quickly? So I do think ads was a little bit of it, but I think we were very lucky on our timing too and to have things go viral on Facebook and on Pinterest that year. So we had one photo of a cardigan that

14:26
had over 700,000 repins on it, like after it launched and we sold all 300 in a day. And that was just luck of the nature. know, it’s really hard now to go viral. And so I do try to explain that because eight years ago, social media and today social media, but you can, still can go to TikTok and go viral. There still are opportunities. So we just had those few moments.

14:50
And then we kind of played off of it from there. You know, we did spend a little bit of money in ads and I don’t know the exact amount, but it was very little and it wasn’t, it was really just curating that community on Facebook group and being very consistent with social media. So most, would say year one and two, most of the sales were organic sales. Okay. And then in terms of product sourcing, did you have like a steady factory at that point or were you still just kind of sourcing stuff from the fashion district and whatnot?

15:19
So yeah, no, years one through three all came from LA Fashion District. We did not have any factories. We still don’t have our own factory. We do work with manufacturers now versus paying as much wholesale. We still work both ways, but yeah, I would go to Fashion District up until 2016 even, I think 2017, it all came from there. So when you go to the Fashion District, you can say, hey, I want you to sew my label on there, right? And make adjustments.

15:49
Yes, correct. It’s been a while since I’ve been there. I we did shop there also. The minimum order requirements are generally lower there also, right, depending on who you find. Yeah. But we got to a point quickly about 2016, 2017 that we were needing three to four hundred per style that we carry. So we hit them very easily. Yes, the order requirements are very low, but the more you buy, the more willing they’ll work on pricing with you. Yeah. I mean, one of the challenges of clothing also is

16:18
the sizing and the return rate. How do you, how’d you deal with that early on? So sizing will still always be the biggest issue and we’re still trying to figure out the best way to overcome that. One of the, some of the couple recent changes in the last two years have been having several different size models on the site and then also doing videos that explain how the item fits. Yeah. So the sizing will always be the number one issue because it’s very hard to know your size when you’re shopping online.

16:46
But we definitely have implemented new strategies the last two years by having several size models and then also to do videos on the site that try to explain the fit. if they should size up or size down or stick with their true size in a size chart. In the beginning, I will say it was probably the number one reason of returns was this just didn’t fit me. So it’s always going to be a battle with clothing online, there’s hopefully even…

17:13
in the near future, more things that come out on helping women to, men too, to really understand what size that they should buy before purchasing. How much money did you start with and did you invest into Pink Lily when it launched? So when we launched the site, we had been selling on eBay and Etsy for about, in that Facebook group for about six months. And I think we had about $10,000 in our bank account to save aside from all of

17:40
the profits to reinvest. So we started very little, like a couple hundred dollars for eBay. And we’d always reinvest the money and put a hundred percent of the profits back into the account to grow the inventory. So when we started pinkfully.com, we had about 10,000. We I think spent $500 on the website and then the remainder all went to inventory to launch. So we had, you know, a small selection of clothing to, you know, I think 20 to 30 styles when we launched.

18:08
Wow, okay, so 10 grand for 23 styles. That means it’s not that many units of each, right? No, at the very beginning I would get like one pack, like maybe six units per style. And so it was basically up to you to understand and know what was gonna sell, right? Or did you just buy that many styles to see what would sell and then focus on your winners? What was your strategy? Oh, I didn’t really have a strategy. I kind of just would buy what I personally would wear and what I thought would sell well and then go off trends. So back in the day,

18:37
in 2014, like Chevron was huge. So, okay, I sold a Chevron Maxi. It did really well. It sold out so fast. So then I would turn around and use all of the profits to buy five more Chevron Maxi. So I kind of played off what was selling well to turn around and buy more product in that same area scope to see if that continued to do well. And when did you start introducing models for your clothes? I mean, that costs money, right? Yeah, immediately. we immediately. Yeah. When we launched, we launched with models.

19:07
We did some flat lays, but typically the clothing for us sold better on a model. Yeah, so where did you find the talent and was that a huge investment on your part to hire these models for photo shoots? We found the talent. have a college here in town and we found the talent just by I actually looked on Instagram and I was like I want to DM a few girls see if they’re interested. I did all the photography in the beginning for the about the eight months too. It took most of my.

19:36
time doing every single job. But then we hired a full time photographer, I think by August of our first year and we’ve had now we have I think three full time photographers. We have like seven models that are here most days and yeah, it is an expense. But for us it it’s necessary. It was always worth it. That’s amazing. So you bootstrap with $10,000. That’s amazing for clothing. Yeah. Yeah. What does your husband do? I’m kidding. Since I’m a husband and wife team also and yeah.

20:06
Yeah, she’s kind like the face of the company because I can’t talk about handkerchiefs or that sort of thing. What is his role? So his role is he is the president of the company. He oversees all of the operations side, the HR side and the finance. So he has a degree in finance and his MBA. So that’s his specialty.

20:24
but he also did logistics at his previous corporate world. So he has a lot more operation knowledge than I do. So we kind of split, I’m over product, over customer service, I’m over marketing, face of the brand. He’s on the back half of it on the operation side and the HR, all the harder stuff, but it’s all hard, but it’s stuff that it’s just like people don’t always understand like the backend of a business. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Actually in the beginning when my wife and I worked together,

20:52
closely, we kind of overlapped in our roles and we just kept clashing and fighting and it wasn’t until we separated everything out and things are good now, but it took a while for us to get there. Yeah, we don’t overlap very much at all. There’s really not a lot to them. The product development and marketing side, he has not much to other than money. That’s about it. That’s really the only like, okay, here’s your marketing budget for the month. And I’m like, no, we need more. And he’s like, no, you can’t go over this amount. So that’s about the only thing that we really

21:22
a lot of like conversations on, but we have demand planning and forecasters now. So he’s out of that budget, you know, a finance team that sets the budget. So he just oversees them now. It’s not him setting the budget. Right, right. Yeah. So you’re growing really fast. And I know that when you grow fast, it’s extremely uncomfortable. It seemed like you were switching out warehouses like every year or less. Walk me through that time, if you will. Things are growing fast. What were the first things that you’re implementing in terms of infrastructure?

21:51
during that growth period? Yeah, so our first warehouse, what we thought was a warehouse, we moved into in July of 2014. It was 1,500 square feet. So we’re like, oh yeah, this is huge. At least it’s out of our house. And we quickly realized it was way too small. And by the November of 2014, we found a 3,000 square foot warehouse and we moved the week before Black Friday.

22:15
So we did have, we had a one year lease on the first one, but we were like, you know what, makes sense just to go ahead and move. We need more space to grow. Otherwise we’re going to be stuck at this smaller amount. So we moved and by 2015, we were like, we still need more than 3000 square feet. So my husband and I bought this, the land right up the road. was two acres and started building our current warehouse facility. So we bought it in 2015. built.

22:44
25,000 square foot warehouse and completed that in 2016. We added on an additional 25,000 square feet by 2018. And then by 2019, we’re like, we have to have another warehouse. we bought, or we rent, we signed the lease on one right up the road. That’s 160,000 square feet. So last year, 2020 Black Friday, we were actually operating out of both and trying to like makeshift up there just for more room. But we currently are operating out of both warehouses.

23:15
Your offices are in Kentucky, right? Correct, yeah. In California, that would have been like a hundred million dollars. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Wow. No, it’s not that much here. That’s amazing. So when you were scaling also, so the way, how many skews are we talking about when you moved into that first 1500 warehouse? Like what was all the room for? Was it just inventory? Were you carrying inventory or was stuff made on demand? It was a lot of inventory for

23:43
girls to work at that time we were hiring people to come in and package orders. So they’re not doing it on my dining room table. So we had like packaging stations and we also had all the inventory stored there too. Oh, wow. Okay. So you don’t use a third party logistics firm or anything. You’re still fulfilling all of your orders. Yeah, we, we do not do three PLs. We do all of it fulfillment too. Wow. Okay. So that, can you just walk me through what your facility looks like? Is there like,

24:12
conveyor belts like amazon.com where boxes come down and you have these automated stations or? So they did quote that it was going to be about $20 million to put in. We’re not doing that. So we do have some really cool things, but we don’t have conveyor belts. We have like our inbound, know, they have, they receive the boxes, they put the way the boxes, have overflow, we have really high racking. So we, you know, we have those little things that they go up on the

24:41
whatever they’re called. then we have about, we have a day shift and a night shift. So we are operating seven days a week out pretty much, think 20, 20 something hours. They’re 10 hour shifts. So 20 hours a day, the warehouse is open. And I think that the, the skew count currently is about 13,000 skews. 13,000. Wow. Okay. Can you walk me through just like the calculations and going three PL versus owning your own warehouse?

25:11
So I, still doing a lot of deep diving into that and it’s not out of the question in the future. The hard part is with three PLs, it works very well. If you have less skews, the more skew you have, especially being more of a fast fashion brand, it’s a lot harder for them. So for us, it makes, think in the long run, makes sense to keep our fulfillment. Um, but three PLs, you know, they work very well when you have a limited skew, you know, if you’re only selling 10, 20, 30 products and you’re always replenishing those.

25:41
makes sense, but if you’re changing out styles every season, it doesn’t really make that much sense yet. So actually, I walk me through that side of the business. So once something goes out of season, are you stuck with the inventory or what do you do with the inventory when it goes out of style? Yeah. So one thing that, especially with our brand is we’re not too trendy and that we do that on that. That reason, if there’s a trend that hits the market now, but in two months it could be gone like that.

26:08
doesn’t really resonate very well with me because I don’t want to invest in something that I’m going to just toss out of my closet too much from now. You know, so like our pieces are more staple that can last for years versus it being so trendy. We do occasionally have some trends that we want to test out. But again, if you go to our site, it’s really a little bit for, we offer so much for everyone, but it’s not super, super trendy. It’s just good classic styles. But there is that case where you do have inventory that you’re sitting on.

26:37
and the trend goes out, say tie dye 2020 was huge. And then we didn’t sell it all the way through tie dye. And then the trend quickly died. So at that point, we work really hard on, you know, what kind of sales do we need to put it in? What kind of liquidation process do we need? have once a year, typically we do an in-person warehouse sale where people can come shop items, very discounted. And then the clearance as well. So we do have a clearance section on the site, sales section. And those are typically for styles that are, you know,

27:07
maybe there are 20 or less left in stock or they’re just out of season and we are not carrying them in the future. So we just want to discount them to get them out the door. When did you start designing your own clothes? Are you designer clothing designer? I’m not a designer. I have ideas, but I am not like an actual designer. So we started working with our vendors in LA and then some in China and Korea back in I think about 2018.

27:33
on our own ideas. So from there, it’s transitioned very quickly with manufacturing our own items. And we’re currently actually hiring for a full-time designer, but I’m not one myself.

27:48
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28:17
Now, first and foremost, protecting our IP starts with a solid trademark and Emerge Council provides attorney-advised strategic trademark prosecution, both in the United States and abroad for a very low price. And furthermore, the students in my course have used Steve for copywriting their designs, policing against counterfeits and knockoffs, agreements with co-founders and employees, website and social media policies, privacy policies, vendor agreements, brand registry, you name it. So if you need IP protection services, go to EmergeCouncil.com and get a free consult.

28:46
And if you tell Steve that I sent you, you’ll get a hundred dollar discount. That’s E-M-E-R-G-E-C-O-U-N-S-E-L.com. Now back to the show. So, I mean, you’re the brains though, right? I mean, you know what’s trendy. So walk me through like, how do you design without being a designer? So I’ll look for concepts. I see things that do well within, again, it goes back to the very beginning. Like what sells well on the site? What are people loving?

29:13
and keep continually playing off that. If there is something that they love, let’s innovate it. Let’s make it newer for next year, but let’s keep the same concept of it. If there’s an animal print maxi dress that every single time we restock it, sells out. Let’s take that and let’s come up with three more animal print designs. Let’s work on that. So I see things that I like and I put them together in my head or on a horrible Photoshop. Like here’s the idea for the swimsuit, but I cannot draw.

29:43
all and I do not know AutoCAD at all. So I do work with our graphic designer here and she’ll draw prints and you know, I do oversee a lot of that with her. But we also, we know our customer pretty well. So it’s like we know what they love and we continue just to play off what they want. And so if you’re working with like a designer, I imagine it takes multiple iterations before like the stitching and this, I mean, there’s so much they can do from a picture, right? Exactly. Yes.

30:12
Yeah, there’s a lot of different fit samples and a lot of like proto samples that it takes two or three rounds. Okay. Wow. This just sounds I mean, running a clothing business just sounds so much more complicated. It is very complicated. Looking back, I’m like, maybe I should have started something else. But it’s okay. I love that because I wear clothes every day. so yeah, buddy, also, it is a necessity. And the way of the world is, you know, turning to shopping online, which is great for the future. But yeah, it is it is very complicated.

30:42
Of those 13,000 SKUs, how many would you say kind of turn over in a given year? We do four to five turns a year on our complete inventory. But in terms of like the styles that kind of go obsolete or that you’re taking down, you mentioned you had staples and then you had new styles. Of those 13,000, how many of those are just kind of staples that just lasted the test of time?

31:07
So for our staples, we still don’t always keep them in stock. We do let them run out and then restock them at the season that they are appropriate for. There’s some staples like bodysuits, if they’re long sleeves, we may not have them in stock in May and June. So we do still let them sell out at times. And so I would say 90 % of our business turns and it’s not a staple. Goal would be maybe getting it to maybe 40%, 60 one day. But yeah, most of our stuff is it turns. Amazing. Okay. So

31:37
Okay, so where we left off was you’re at $4 million. How do you go from four to 100? I mean, so what were the primary drivers for growing, you know, past, you know, nine figures? Yeah. So 14, 15, 16, we grew, you know, four to 12 million. We kind of stayed at 12 million for a year or two, just because we kept outgrowing our space and we, was just my husband and I, it was our money, you know, so like,

32:02
We reinvested all the profits, but we didn’t put additional in to continue to scale. So by 2016, we started working outside of just Facebook and Instagram. We started doing more paid ads. Influencers, we introduced those influencer partnerships, I think in 2018, which really helped elevate. And then 2019, we teamed up with a minority investor company and they really helped elevate and scale.

32:29
we started building out our teams with director level, because at the time it was still my husband and I doing most of the work. So they invested in director level positions and really those positions helped us elevate even faster. Our director of U-Com, our warehouse director, our marketing director and such. So by getting a little bit of expertise on board by 2019, that really helped us go from 30 million to 100 million within two years.

32:59
Was that just all online or was that due to, are you in retail outlets? We have one retail store here in our town and it is under a million a year. So it’s very small since we were just a college town. It’s not like a big city. So it is, it’s a very small amount of revenue. Okay. So it’s, all online sales that you scaled and it was, it sounds like it was scaled through mostly just paid advertising Facebook and Instagram, would imagine. Yeah. Paid advertising and yeah, pretty much. What’s, are you guys on TikTok?

33:28
We are, yes. How’s that going for you guys? So TikTok is, it’s great for like Legion, but it’s not great for building the community. So we are consistent on there. And I think we have about 150,000 followers. We were one of the first brands to jump on there quickly, because anytime a platform arises, I’m very quick to like make sure that our brands on there and people know about us and see us. But

33:55
people don’t respond to brands as well on TikTok. So we’re still trying to learn to navigate that. But yeah, we do have 150,000 followers. We just try to get them over to Instagram or get them to our email list. You we’ve run some TikTok ads that, you know, they go to it and it signs them up for our email newsletter. That’s a key driver to get them to actually shop. Yeah. Speaking among my colleagues, it seems like people will find you on TikTok, but you have to drive them to either your own site, get their email or Instagram to actually complete the sale.

34:24
Exactly. Yes, it is a good for Legion, but not really for conversion. Yeah. Are you guys on YouTube also? Or is it just so we have a YouTube we really pushed it last year until it just bandwidth we couldn’t keep up with keep making the videos every single week. It was really more behind the scenes on the brand side though than like product, which people love. They love seeing you know, the behind the scenes of the brand. Yeah, what is your philosophy of you personally being in the post? Are you still in a lot of the posts that you’re in either tic toc or

34:54
or Instagram? So TikTok not really, or Instagram. I mean, they’ll repost photos that I get and share and stuff, but for sure YouTube behind the brand more so and like behind the scenes stuff, but I’m not like the model. You know, we do, they do have TikTok models and, and photographers and such that. And I honestly just don’t have the time to go to all these photo shoots and do that part of it too.

35:19
Yeah, I was just wondering. So that transition probably took place once you cross like eight figures, I would imagine, right? And you could hire a whole bunch more people to handle everything. Right. Yeah, we did a lot of the live videos for the first few years and people really did enjoy, know, seeing the CEO do the videos. And I would love to do more of those live videos on Facebook. But it’s just right now I’ll leave it to the marketing team to do it. Yeah. So I want to switch gears a little bit. And I want to I know you’re a mom and you have three kids, right?

35:47
So how does one, I know we have some problems doing this. How does one juggle three kids who running such a large business? With help for sure. my, have a, our two older ones are in school, but then my two year old, has a babysitter that comes during the day. So we come into work while she is at home with her babysitter. If we ever have to travel, she’ll stay the night too. She’s great. But my husband is really good too. Like we,

36:14
We both are great parents versus it just being like the mom’s role or the dad’s role. So we tag team a lot. And if I have to work late, he’ll go home at four and let our babysitter go and like he’ll cook dinner and such. So it is a lot at times and where it’s so much at work and then you can’t get your work done and you have to do it. But I try really hard to, you know, four to eight o’clock is.

36:37
Kids time, we play, we do fast, we do that. And then if I have to finish working, I’ll do that after I get the kids to bed to complete the emails for the day. Yeah, so your kids are younger than mine. Mine are teenage years now, and I feel like I’m a full-time driver starting at one o’clock on. I can’t even imagine.

36:58
So my work hours, I work from about seven until about noon or one o’clock. And then the whole afternoon is just devoted to me being like a glorified Uber driver. Like I go to all the practices, I coach and that sort of thing. Can you walk me through your typical day? Actually, I’m very curious. Yeah. So in the morning it is wake up, get the kids ready for school, do my daughter’s hair. They just started riding the bus.

37:22
Two weeks ago, they’re super excited about it because we moved into our district so they could ride the bus. I don’t know why they begged to ride the bus. I was like, I hated the bus when I was a kid. I did too, actually. They ride the bus and they like it. So I’ll get them out the door. My husband does too. And then we play with our two year old for just a little bit before her babysitter gets there. And then I will come into work. I’m still working on, we just recently moved. I’m still working on getting my home office so I can actually work at home some. It looks nice.

37:48
Just a mile away, so it’s not hard to get here. So come in and I’m typically here every day from eight to four or eight to five depending on the day. And then go home. have right now, this is a crazy season. We’ve got soccer, we’ve got cheerleading and baseball. So every single night there is an activity for a kid to get to. Yes. And so spring, especially it’s a little harder, but

38:12
that nights are usually either driving one of them and staying at a practice or staying home with the other two kids and feeding them dinner, cooking on all that stuff. It’s nuts. from you said nine to four, you’re at work. What are your primary duties at work right now? I am over so many things. So, I basically oversee all the products. So, I’m over the buying team. We just recently hired a director of merchandising, so she’s still learning the ropes.

38:42
to work with them and demand planning to ensure we’re hitting the numbers that we need to hit on the sell through percentages on our inventory coming in. I also oversee the marketing team. So I work with them directly, the marketing director on just strategies and overall implementation for marketing. Also oversee the customer service team to ensure the CSAT scores are going up and everything that all customers are satisfied.

39:07
And then from there, if there’s ever other issues that arise or just things like today, this afternoon, going over to the warehouse just to see new things that we’re doing and dealing with some issues with new contracts for our ambassadors and influencers, et cetera. So hands in a lot of different things at all times. Tori, that made me tired just hearing you say all that stuff, actually. I do say pretty tired at night, I’m like, OK, I need to go to bed. You probably sleep very well.

39:35
I do, yes. Okay, so I want to kind of shift this last part of the interview towards people. Like, so as I mentioned before, I run a class and oftentimes people want to sell apparel. So I want your advice here. So whenever someone asks me to sell, whether they should sell apparel, I usually say no, because I think it’s just going be extremely difficult. But you clearly pulled it off on a bootstrap budget. What advice would you give people who actually want to go the apparel route? I would say,

40:04
this time and age, eight years post when I started. Total different world, obviously now with clothing and even things like Amazon fashion was not a thing when I started. So I would say the only way for it to be successful at this point in time would just find a gap in the market of something not being sold. So that’s gonna be like, if there is an idea that you have, I’ve seen great brands pop up like Viori, they sell.

40:31
Really good lounge where and such and they are huge brain that just popped up, know a few years ago, but they had that gap in the market and there wasn’t great lounge where everybody who’s staying home and they wanted that stuff so to really look to see what that gap is and you know, I agree on trends changing way too fast. I think if you go that route, you may not be successful. I would think it’s going to be much more successful if you have.

40:58
classic styles that work for people long term. And also even going into the route that we’re trying to go in the future is just having a sustainable clothing line. That could be something huge if you wanted to start out that right now. Have you guys had problems with knockoffs? Yes, absolutely. So we always have issues with that. And even as far as graphic tees and graphic designs that we do on our

41:22
ours that our graphic designer hand draws, then we see it all over Etsy a month later. So yes, we always have issues with that. What would you say like a good starting budget would be for someone new who wants to go into apparel? Do you think it’s possible to bootstrap it just like you guys did today? absolutely. Yeah. Okay. think I’m always in favor of walking before you run. You know that. And where would you start in terms of marketing? Would you start with influencers? Would you start on social? What would you do if you started all over again?

41:50
Right now I would do both. would start definitely with influencers and TikTok and Instagram, media. think that there’s still lot of life left in some of those platforms and there’s also new platforms always starting up. So a lot of women have, or a lot of boutique owners that I know have great success with both of those, especially TikTok right now. Yeah, yeah. Take some dance lessons, throw up some TikToks. Start dancing and showing them how to do great. What’s your influencer strategy?

42:20
What do you We work with a variety of influencers and we really, we ensure that we’re getting a good ROI on them though. So I mean, it does take a lot of like after the fact, here’s what they are posting. Here’s what this what’s sold. Here’s what their coupon code brought in for us to be able to rebook them. You do have to bring in a certain ROI, but our strategy it’s really it’s ever changing because the influencer world is always, always where do find them? Do you look on Instagram primarily?

42:50
Yeah, so we were Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. We work with all influencers on all those platforms. So do you give them like a trial? Like you mentioned ROI, but it’s really hard to figure out whether someone’s going to be ROI positive, right? Most influencers don’t do a trial. It’s just, they’re… So what I meant by that is do you cast your net wide and then and figure out who works and then just focus on those? Okay. I think if you’re starting out now, that’s exactly what I would do. Do you focus on the smaller or are you guys looking at bigger people or…

43:19
So for us, it’s really good mix. The ones that really drive the conversion and the sales are the bigger girls, but it’s very hard to book larger girls. And it’s also very expensive to book larger girls. I think if you take the money and split it amongst smaller ones, you’re going to get a whole lot more new audiences. And in the long run, it can be better for just that top of funnel marketing. what do you negotiate as like the deliverables? I mean, obviously you’re not

43:49
Sometimes one post isn’t enough, right? So what is your typical like minimum book for them to post for you? Usually it is just one post. one post, interesting. a session too. I mean, there’s definitely some that we do like, okay, two posts a month and two story sessions, but a lot of them like to have a variety of things that they cover on their platforms and they don’t want to just be like only showing one brand all the time. Interesting. Are you looking for ROI positivity with influencers or do you, I would imagine your repeat customer rates pretty,

44:19
Pretty good, right? Because you have a closing We have about a 74 % retention rate. OK, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. It’s very above average. Yeah, that’s amazing. So that means you can probably afford to lose money on these influencers, right? Just to get someone in we don’t, though. We make sure that we do not lose money on any of our investments. So we do make sure that we have a positive ROI. OK. So if you’re brand new, would you just recommend going after the small guys? Do you actually just give away product for the small people?

44:49
In for. In the past, yes, in the past, it’s getting harder now. It has changed so much that very little influencers do it for free product. Everyone considers themselves an influencer. These days it’s changed drastically in the last even two to three years. The way of the world in 2018 with influencer world is drastically different than it is in 2022. Yeah, OK, so that sounds like a good overview. So you could probably bootstrap with like 10 grand if you were doing it all over today. Focus on social, maybe tick tock the free organic methods.

45:18
Yeah. And then find some influencers, find out, hopefully try to just give away the product in return for some mentions and then just. Yeah. sure. And be social, create a community. Yeah. I think the community is a really big factor. I think that that’s just the way of the future with online selling overall. And, you know, people want to feel like they’re, my husband’s in this bourbon group community and he spends a lot of money in there and he’s like, I love it. I’m addicted to it. And I feel like.

45:44
people actually do get addicted to these groups and that they want to check it every day. And then they’re like, oh, well, let me buy that. You know, they get excited and they want to feel a part of a community. You know, people are spending less and less real time together. So they want to have an alternative. And that’s a community on social media. Facebook still the best place for communities or have you branched out elsewhere? I think a Facebook group is probably still the number one. Still the number one. Tori, thanks a lot for coming on the show. I know you’re a busy woman just based on your nine to four schedule. It sounded ridiculous.

46:14
Where can people find more about you, your clothing, everything? Yeah, so my Instagram is just my first and last name at Tori Gerbig and our website is pinklilly.com, Instagram at Pink Lily. So super easy, both just the names. Cool. Well, Tori, thanks a lot. I’m sure this audience will get a lot out it, especially the ones who want to start apparel companies. Well, yeah, thank you for having me. Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now, Tori’s story is super inspiring.

46:43
and she truly is an amazing person. For more information about this episode, go to mywebquaterjob.com slash episode 411. And once again, I want to thank Postscript, which is my SMS platform of choice for e-commerce. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base. Now SMS is the next big own marketing platform and you can sign up for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-R-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve.

47:10
I also want thank Klaviyo, which is my email marketing platform of choice for ecommerce merchants. You can easily put together automated flows like an abandoned card sequence, a post-purchase flow, a win-back campaign, basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to mywifequitterjob.com slash KLAVIO. Once again, that’s mywifequitterjob.com slash KLAVIO. Now I talk about how I these tools on my blog, and if you are interested in starting your own ecommerce store, head on over to mywifequitterjob.com.

47:38
and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.

00:29
wanted to take pictures with him. And today he’s going to teach us how he created this incredible brand. But before we begin, I want to thank Klaviyo for sponsoring this episode. Always excited to talk about Klaviyo because they’re the email marketing platform that I use for e-commerce and it depends on them for over 30 % of my revenue. Now you’re probably wondering why Klaviyo and not another provider. Well Klaviyo is the only email platform out there that is specifically built for e-commerce stores. And here’s why it’s so powerful. Klaviyo can track every single customer who’s shopped in your store and exactly what they bought.

00:57
And let’s say I want to send an email to everyone who purchased a red handkerchief in the last week. Easy. Let’s say I want to set up a special autoresponder sequence to my customers to pay on what they bought, piece of cake, and there’s full revenue tracking on every single email sent. Klaviyo is the most powerful email platform that I’ve ever used. You can try them for free over at klaviyo.com slash my wife. That’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash my wife. I also want to thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode. Now, if you run an e-commerce business of any kind,

01:26
You know how important it is to own your own customer contact list. And this is why I focus a significant amount of my efforts on SMS marketing. SMS or text message marketing is already a top five revenue source for my e-commerce store. And I couldn’t have done it without Postscript, which is my text message provider. Now, why did I choose Postscript? It’s because they specialize in e-commerce and e-commerce is their primary focus. Not only is it easy to use, but you can quickly segment your audience based on your exact sales data and implement automated flows like an abandoned cart at the push of a button.

01:56
Not only that, but it’s price well too and SMS is the perfect way to engage with your customers. So head on over to postscript.io slash Steve and try it for free. That’s P O S T S U I P T dot I O slash Steve. And then finally, I wanted to mention my other podcast that I released with my partner, Tony. And unlike this podcast where I interviewed successful entrepreneurs in e-commerce, the profitable audience podcast covers all things related to content creation and building an audience. No topic is off the table and we tell it like how it is in a raw and entertaining way.

02:26
So be sure to check out the profitable audience podcast on your favorite podcast app. Now on to the show.

02:37
Welcome to the My Wife Quitter Job podcast. Today I’m thrilled to have Rafael Snyder on the show. Now Rafael is someone who I met at the Menfluential conference run by our mutual friend, Antonio Centeno. And we’ve also hung out a couple of times, I believe at Klaviyo and also at ECF Live. Now Rafael is the CEO and editor in chief of the Gentleman’s Gazette. And he also runs a successful e-commerce business over at Fort Belvedere.

03:04
and he’s probably one of the best dressed men that I know personally. And he actually also sells handkerchiefs among other high end men’s accessories and clothing. Now, hanging with Raph is tough because random people on the street always ask for photos with him. So literally you can’t get down the street without someone like accosting him because he’s that famous. He runs a killer YouTube channel, is a master of content, and today we’re gonna find out how he’s managed to create such a successful business.

03:33
So welcome, Raphael. How are doing, Well, thank you, Steve, for such a glowing introduction. I think I’ve never gotten something that detailed. And I also realized I haven’t updated our description because I’m no longer the editor-in-chief and I haven’t done it in a while. So where did you get that from? No way. OK. Well, it’s still on the main site. didn’t realize. When did that happen? Will have worked to do, oh, you know, like we hired a content person a while back.

04:02
As you know, in the beginning, you just start on your own and you do everything and you wear all hats and then it just gets too much. And I realized that burnout and it was actually talking to Antonio. He was like, well, you’re still doing everything yourself. And I’m like, yeah. He’s like, well, I have these virtual assistants and it really has transformed my business. Was like, me more about that. yeah, I also fondly remember influential because I

04:30
That was when we really had time to talk and connect because we hung out there. think you’re so popular at e-commerce fuel. You know, there’s so many old and well-known faces that when I didn’t know you and it wasn’t like we had just three hours over lunch that we could talk. Right. So true. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed that. again, you are constantly accosted by random people who want a picture with you. I remember at Klaviyo, I go, it’s OK if I take a picture. I’m like, who is this guy?

05:00
Yeah, it’s when you have a YouTube channel, right? It’s like I remember that in the beginning. It was a very interesting concept because we started with written content because, you know, we started in 2010 and blogging was the thing. then I remember doing surveys on the side. It’s like, hey, what would you like more content of? And in the back of my head, I was like, well, they’re going to want video. And then I got back to survey results and it was like, we want more written content. I was like, huh.

05:25
bit disappointed and then it didn’t daunt me until much later, right? If you ask a group that comes to your site because you offer written content, what they want more of, they’re gonna tell you written content. Now, I still forged ahead and we double in YouTube early on and then didn’t do it because I felt like I couldn’t do it as perfectly as I would have wanted to and that was a big mistake. I should have just said, no, just do it and don’t be afraid. Don’t

05:54
you know, let the fear take over. And so we started in, I think, 2014, 2015 to really focus on it. And it was a transformation right now. People had a face and they connected over it. And I think that was really pivotal because now we get a lot more views on YouTube than on our website, right? And if we just had kept doing the same thing, we just would have been on the website and no one would know my face really.

06:20
But this way, it’s surprising sometimes, you you go to UPS, right? you’re at the, you’re at like this, this Chinese restaurant, you know, very humble and you go there and they’re like, Hey, I love your videos. Or, you know, I’m wearing my bike helmet, you know, all sweaty and they’re like, Hey, I love your videos, Sven. You know, it’s just really cool to see that part. Of course, in the last two years that has toned down because I’m not out and about people on about you have a mask. Right.

06:49
Once Whole Foods, a guy came up to me and was like, hey, I love your YouTube videos. I’m impressed. Like you can see my eyes and my voice. That’s it, right? Well, you were probably well dressed. I mean, you stand out, right? Yeah. I like dressing and you automatically stand out if you don’t, you know, if you dress differently. It’s like, oh, who’s that guy? Actually, I was going to ask you this. I was going to ask you this later, but let’s let’s cover it now. So when did you actually start dressing nicely? My wife is actually always trying to get me to dress better.

07:19
But for me, like, I don’t know, it takes a lot of effort. So when did you get into fashion? It was, you know, not in my childhood. Like my parents didn’t pay too much attention. My dad liked more like a loud unusual things, you know, in clothes or cars or whatever. My mom, not at all. And I just got, whatever was on sale or hand me downs, really. And it wasn’t until I was a teenager, I started buying

07:48
fountain pens on eBay, like in Germany. I grew up in Germany, so I went to school there. And you start writing with a fountain pen, no ballpoint pens. That’s what you write with. And so I heard this brand Mont Blanc and eBay was pretty new back then. And they didn’t have any age limits, so I think I could sign up at the age of 14. And I bought an expensive fountain pen. And I got it and I was like, this doesn’t actually

08:17
write better than my five dollar Lamy school pen. So I sold it again and I made twice as much money. It was like, wait a second. So I quit my paperboy job and I started buying fountain pens and selling them on eBay. And that was my job. That’s how I made money. And so I would buy lots of stuff and then sell them individually. And I, I,

08:43
once got a pair of cufflinks because Montblanc also made cufflinks. And I was like, well, what do I do with that? I probably can’t sell that. And was like, oh, I need a shirt for cufflinks. Oh, now I have the shirt with a French cuff and cufflinks. What do I do next? And then I found this book called Gentleman from Bernhard Rözel. And this kind of whole world kind of opened up for me and that my interest evolved. And I was like, wow, this is awesome.

09:12
I remember talking to Antonio, so I don’t know how you met Antonio, but I was at an event, I think it was Blog World, and then all of a sudden, I had no idea who Antonio was. This really well-dressed guy that sits next to me, and he says, hey Steve, what’s up? And I was like, who is this? But he was well-dressed, Antonio’s really confident, right? And so we just started chatting, and then we became friends, and then we started talking about fashion.

09:39
And I asked him, hey, you you’re like the best dressed guy here is like, yeah, the reason I do that is because it gives me confidence and I stand out. Right. Is that like a similar thing for you at conferences and events also? Or you know, when I when I started, right, it was it came from this like interest and passion. I’m a highly curious person. And then I also just wanted to learn more about it. Reflecting now, I think it is definitely a big part of it. Right. It’s like this

10:09
when you stand out in a way you’re known for. And I noticed that when I’m in London or wherever, people come up to you and ask you for directions. And what I realized is we all judge. We are like, hey, don’t judge. We don’t want to judge, but we all do. It happens in like microseconds and we’re not even aware of it. You’re like, oh, this is a well-dressed man. He’s probably trustworthy. He’s rich. All these associations we have come through and

10:38
there is a benefit to that. Now it just happens to align with an interest. No, didn’t come from that angle. I think Antonio is much more scientifically interested in that angle. But we came from different angles, but we both fully understand the power of it. And yet when you go to a conference, right, it’s like, oh, there’s that well dressed guy that walks around, you got to meet him. Right. And so it’s very easy for people to remember, like remember you.

11:06
I see this guy, I know who he is. Ah, yes. Right. Versus if you’re just one out of many, you have to stand out in a different way. usually stand out by saying random stuff and being loudmouthed. Maybe your methods apply better. I’m guessing. You know, what’s funny though is it’s one thing to be well dressed, but it’s another thing to actually sell men’s apparel, which in my opinion is actually one of the hardest things to sell online. Right? Yeah.

11:36
I mean, think about it, every store sells men’s apparel. So when did you actually start the store? Did the YouTube and the content come first or did the store come first? Actually, the blog came first. It was a content. No, I came to the US in 2009 as an exchange student. I went to law school. I realized I hated it. I hated law. But I still came because it was an opportunity for me to come to the US and get a degree.

12:04
I had met my wife in 2006 during an exchange semester, so we got married and then I couldn’t work because I didn’t have a work permit. And I was like, well, what do I do now? It was 2009, 2010, you no one hired anyone, let alone a foreigner without work experience. And so I was like, let’s do this blog thing. And then I was like, hey, I, I,

12:32
I was like, how long does it take to make $100,000? I was like, if you do it well, about five years. And my wife was supportive of me and said, I believe in you. think you can do this. I’m going to do the day job and make some money and then we can figure it out. Was like, cool, let’s do this. And then, you know, I would write about stuff and it’s like, oh, where did you get this pair of gloves from? was like flea market in Vienna, right? Not really useful. And then I was like, well, maybe we could

13:01
create that stuff because you know in my spare time I had visited shoemakers and shirt makers and umbrella makers and it was just a hobby and was like well I already have contacts I know where I could get that people don’t so why not create something out of this and I didn’t you know I didn’t go to business school I didn’t have any business degrees I didn’t think it through and was like well what’s a better opportunity I didn’t have a community of entrepreneurs that I could tap into and I thought oh well you know I already have this

13:31
this content side and we have followers and people are going to love our stuff and it’s just going to fly off the shelf and they’re going to buy it. And I was wrong. It took us like a year to kind of just develop everything. And I remember, you know, renting space in a self-storage facility and have products in there because not everything came and I’m not a naturally good project manager. it, you know, it dragged out, but I think we first started selling in, I think 2014, but

14:00
We first conceptualized the idea in 2012 and this eBay experience I had earlier really helped me because what I realized was I liked the marketing, I liked the photography and I hated waiting in line at the post office to ship something and to pack things up. And so from the very first day, we worked with a 3PL, which I think a lot of times people don’t do, they kind of self-fulfill. And so I skipped that step because of that past experience.

14:30
And then once we had the e-commerce channel, did YouTube. And at the time, and Shopify was technically around, but it was not known at all, at least not to me. So we started with Magento because I looked at all the platforms and I was like, well, if we ever have to upgrade to enterprise version or whatever, I’m already in the same platform and the transition is probably going to be easier. And so that’s what we chose, Magento. Are you still on Magento?

14:58
We’re still on Magento. Wow. Okay. I remember evaluating shopping carts and Magento was on my list because back then it was, you know, like the standard for larger shops. But then I looked at the code and it was really hard to understand. And then you required hefty hosting and had all these little quirks. So I actually skipped, skipped Magento, but power to you. I think, you know, if you’d start today, most people will start there, right? Cause it’s just, it’s easy. It’s, it’s lower stakes.

15:27
It scales. There’s so much you don’t have to worry about. But at the time, I didn’t know that was an option. And then, know, once you’re in the system, you’re like, well, we’re doing all these things. What’s the cost of switching now? And I’m still revaluing. I’m not married to Magento or anything. But it was also like we had this good team. You know, I felt like they were really on top of things. It was really affordable. Like, you know, doing the math. Yeah. Your SaaS apps versus, you know, one time payment apps versus how much do I pay per year to maintain it?

15:57
But there’s lots of things that go into it. You don’t have to tell me that. I’m actually still on an open source shopping cart myself. I never made the switch to Shopify and it’s free. I have to touch it maybe once every five years, five to ten years to do an upgrade. So it hasn’t been that bad. I’m curious with your blog. So you started that, you said in 2012 or? I started in 2010. 2010, okay. February 2010.

16:26
How long did it take you for that to take off? I mean, you had a five year plan, you said, but did you hit six figures earlier than that? Yes, yes, way earlier. And so then we were like, let’s do this, this other stuff. Because in the beginning we had, you know, private advertisers, you know, brands in our space, like that you and value to content and the audience. So that’s how we kind of made our money early on was ads.

16:55
Okay. For a while I thought maybe, we’re going to do it like Huffington Post. And since we started with $300 each, like I put in 300 and Theresa did 300, so 600 total. think in 2011 we founded the LLC with that capital. We were like, well, yeah, we’ll, we can’t buy traffic. We can’t buy links or anything. We’ll just do organic traffic. That was the strategy, organic traffic.

17:25
And in the beginning, it worked really well because you you optimize stuff and I was like, I’ll post every day. And then I realized, you know, I’m going to burn out and let’s do, I want to be the best piece of content on this given topic I write about. In the beginning, it worked super well, but then after a while you realize, you know, your old posts lose in the sharp results. So you have to redo them or do something else with them. And then you always have some that gain.

17:55
and others that lose so net, you maybe just shrink or you maybe increase very slightly. But I think that was our competitive advantage understanding SEO early on. And also I never kind of succumb to these like short term fixes or gains like you know, because in the early days, you could really like, you game it at add more keywords to your stuff, right. And I had read about like a Sergey Brin and like,

18:24
that they modeled Google after academic journals. And the idea was that they became more important, and more often they were cited. If you’re cited by a famous journal or by New York Times, you become more important yourself. they’re like, long-term, our vision is to provide the best search results for humans. And so that was my approach. was like, if we write really good content for humans, I will never have to go back and

18:52
make all these changes that I just did for search engines but not for humans. So that has always been our approach. Now, does it mean you never have to go back and update things? No, because you know, we grow, we learn, we add questions and all that stuff. But I think overall, that helped us grow pretty quickly. So you had these blogs that were ranking in search and then you had brands advertising. You mentioned when you first launched your e-commerce store, which was the logical step, right? Because people were asking for these products.

19:22
Why did it not work out in the beginning? I think, know, our egos or my ego told me like, wow, you know, you have these thousands of people who come to your website, you know, if I look at a conversion rate of 1%, you know, at an average order value of that, I should get X. And then when you actually had the shop and it was less than that, you’re like,

19:49
Oh, you know, yeah, because these people come for content, they don’t come to shop necessarily, right. And just because they know, or I thought they would know me and know the brand and trust it. Like, that wasn’t enough. I realized, no, you actually need a really robust marketing system. And at the time we had, I’d found like Infusionsoft. Okay.

20:16
And I found a company that integrated Infusionsoft with Magento. So we had quite a bit of data and kind of, you I felt for the size of our business were quite advanced in that field with automated email flows and sequences or whatever you want to call it, campaigns. was pretty good. But I just realized too, it’s like, you know, you need to have supporting content and really kind of show people.

20:44
what they get when they buy from you and what they get when they buy from others and then let them decide. But we didn’t have like a well thought out marketing plan. know, and our photos were like white background. It didn’t occur to me that maybe the clothes should be shown on people in a environment that people would like to be in. You know, I just had looked around and was like people do white background stuff. So that’s what I have to do.

21:12
But I didn’t know, I didn’t have mentors. It was really all a trial and error. just curious though. So you had this site and you’re selling men’s apparel. I noticed you sell like shoes and stuff too, right? Was sizing ever a problem? That was a consideration we made and we did not sell shoes on the website. We for a brief moment sold them, tried to sell them offline. But at the beginning, you know, we had this limited amount of capital.

21:41
And we made some money with advertising, but it was like, man, it’s so expensive starting a product range from scratch. Amazon was around at the time. And I was like, well, as a small fish like us, we cannot compete with them on logistics, price or anything. What we can do is compete on quality. And I also felt like there was stuff that I couldn’t find in the market. And I wanted to provide that. So it was very clear that we wanted to have our

22:11
own brand, and not just slap our name on something that you could find elsewhere, but that it was unique to us and defensible. And maybe that was part of my head was always this idea of, if you do it the hard way, it’s more defensible, because people will not be interested because they want to do it the easy way. I felt long term, that was a better thing to defend. mean, what in my head, right? That’s what I, that’s what I thought. I actually 100 % believe in that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And it just, you know, that was

22:41
The strategy I developed there with Teresa, like, okay, that’s, think the path we want to do. And was also the most personally satisfying path, right? Like creating your own product and exactly to your specifications. It’s much more fulfilling than just buying something from someone and put something on. And I realized, you know, money wasn’t my only driver. I realized it early on because there were like, you know, supplement stuff and you could do, it’s like, you know, that doesn’t jive with me. Yes, we all want money and it’s great, but it’s not what really kind of

23:10
made me do things. I’ve, when I knew I always had this long-term vision, right? So then I didn’t care so much about, I make a quick buck here now? Because I was fortunate enough to be the position where we were, we had enough to live by, right? would remember early on with sometimes like there was this food shelf and the neighbor was like, well, they’ve all that stuff that I would use. It was like, well, I’ll go there. I’ll get the food shelf rejects. Why not? You know, like save some money, uh, can put more money in the business and stuff. So

23:39
That was no… Yeah, I was always very resourceful. Let’s put it that way.

23:47
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24:16
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24:45
And if you tell Steve that I sent you, you’ll get a hundred dollar discount. That’s E-M-E-R-G-E-C-O-U-N-S-E-L dot com. Now back to the show. In the beginning, you said you were selling other people’s brands. Was that was that in the beginning or? we never sold other people’s brands. Oh, yeah. It’s always your own brand. OK. From the get go, it was our own brand because that we were like, let’s do that and let’s have just that. And then it was like, what shall we name it? And Theresa was like, well, English country house.

25:15
I was like, well, how is it connected to clothes? then Fort Belvedere is the house of the Duke of Windsor, who was a very kind of rickish, dandy, always well-dressed, most photographed of the world in the 30s, which is, know, in the classic style realm considered to be the golden era of men’s style. So was like, oh, that’s a good connection. Domain was available. Trademark was available. I went to law school, so I thought about that, Trademark. Can we do that? Yeah, for the Gentleman’s Gazette, I…

25:45
hadn’t thought about that yet quite then and then that was harder to get because they were like well Gazette for gentlemen anyhow. were your first best-selling products? I think in the beginning I had this friend and he was like well when you go to a store you don’t just want to walk in and have one product. So it was very clear for me that we didn’t just want to be a one product brand. One thing that I was

26:11
most proud of it was the most unique one. And I also think we sold the most was an boutonniere flowers. It’s like flower. I don’t have one today, but you wear it through your lapel hole basically. And I had my wife’s family, they went on a cruise and I had never been on a cruise and we weren’t there. And you know, you wear a tuxedo and black tie and I was like, well, I’d like to wear a flower, but on a cruise ship, you know, the flower selection is limited. So I once had this like

26:38
gigantic big rose that stood up straight. was like, well, that doesn’t look like in the 30s. And I was like, well, what would it take to make boutonniers that look like flowers that I could bring on a cruise? And that’s how that developed. so that was really like that market. I don’t think was super developed. It was its infancy. I’m not saying no one else had done that before, but the way we did it was really a first and we sold that well. But even there we had to promote it.

27:07
show it to people, see what’s going on. And I realized everything we sold in the beginning didn’t sell well until we put a lot of marketing behind it. as in paid or YouTube? No paid marketing. No paid marketing. Okay. Because for us, we always felt like it was expensive. And it changed so much that I felt like I had to invest so much energy in keeping up with the changes that

27:37
And in my opinion, it’s always something that people often don’t calculate in their ad spend. They’re like, oh, I’m spending that much. I’m getting that ROI and that’s my cost of acquisition. Well, how much do all these people cost that you have to be involved in this process, which is quite a bit. know a lot of e-commerce owners that spend considerable amount of time managing their ad spends and ad budgets. And I didn’t want to do that. I was like, I believe more in this organic realm. And just figuring it out, right?

28:07
Most e-commerce people, I think when they start out, they make these product videos that you would typically put in a product page that are just like explainer videos or feature videos, I call them. And then after a while, maybe, you realize, well, there’s other videos you could make, right? This like, what’s the best pair of socks, right? And where you compare stuff and understanding what actually drives sales and what doesn’t, right? Because sometimes you see these super fancy brand videos, you know, 90 minutes with

28:35
120 cuts and this emotional music and it’s you’re like, wow, this feels amazing. But then you look at the view count and it’s like 520 people watch this. Like, you know, if there’s maybe something that 500,000 people can see, right. And it resonates with them. Maybe that’s a much better sales driver than than that. And then it’s like, what are all the things we have to do, right? How much text we have to write? What kind of pictures do we have to provide?

29:05
What about social media? How can we utilize that? And yeah, that stuff. So can we talk about then which types of YouTube videos work the best for you? You mentioned best ones and comparison videos. What else is in your arsenal? I think what we’ve decided to do as we know along the way was to say, we want to create content for a core audience. But if you just appeal to this core audience,

29:35
you are kind of limited to that. So we realized also talking to Eric Bandholz and others to have like a three tiered approach, right? Top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, and then just structure videos to say, well, what appeals to people, right? So we, one of our most successful videos by ViewCount is a video on table manners. Now we don’t sell anything related to tableware.

30:05
right or linens or anything like that. But our thought process was that, well, a person interested in table manners will likely have an also there’s a chance that they’re also interested in what we do. So we look for that kind of correlation, right? And then a middle of the funnel video could be something like, you know, best wallets for men, right? Something like that. And then a bottom of the funnel video could be very specific, you know, like

30:34
how to identify the quality knit ties, something like that, right? So you funnel it. And sometimes you think a video is a certain funnel and that it turns out to be very different. One thing we notice is like, if a video sparks curiosity, that’s when you hit the jackpot. Because YouTube basically, they’re based on numbers. So they look at what is the click through rate from the thumbnail. So it’s like,

31:03
How does a thumbnail look? And what is the title? And then what is the average watch time of the video? Not just on this one video, but how many videos are people gonna watch? Not just on your channel, but overall, because the longer they can keep people in the platform, the more money they make, the more interested they are in showing it. And so when you look at that and analyze that, that really helped. And YouTube provides a lot of information where you can look at your audience retention and you can see, oh, when I say this,

31:32
there’s a drop when I say this, people watch it again, right? so you can say with your thumbnails, you can like, I’ll do this. And this is my click through rate. I’ll do that. And that is my click through rate. Sadly, you can’t A, split test, but you you do what you can with a platform to figure out what works and what doesn’t. I think- Share with me one of these titles that create mystery that’s worked with you. Do you have any in the top of your head that you remember?

32:02
Yeah, like for example, we did a series called, you why did men stop wearing hats? Right? Why, why, why that? And that’s just something that’s really curious for people. I think for e-commerce people, I’ve, you know, if I meet someone in e-commerce and they’re like, well, we’re thinking of getting into video. I just say, go through your customer, look at the hundred most asked questions they ask, then make videos about that. Right?

32:31
Don’t make a product video about the features and stuff. Just look at what do your customers do and what’s happening. And lately also it daunted on me, we always have the tendency to say, well, we want a lot of people to watch our videos and that’s great. But actually what can happen is it can be really bad for your channel. So there was this lady, she this DIY channel on YouTube and on average she’d get about 150 to 200,000 views on her videos in the first week. Well now,

33:01
COVID hit, she made a video about DIY masks, right? We’re like, well, DIY, know, masks super popular right now. So the video blew up, super successful. Well, now subsequently, when she brought her regular DIY videos out, people started, YouTube recommended those new videos to the audience who also watch a DIY mask video. They’re like, nah, I don’t care for that. So then YouTube sees extremely low click rate. Oh, people don’t like that.

33:31
And now she only gets about 20,000 views on a new video in the first week. So I think when you develop a strategy on YouTube, you have to understand that maybe people want you to stay in your lane. Right? I think we did once a video where, you gentlemen’s because I do gentlemenly things, we talk about etiquette, but then we talked about steak. Right. And because I was like, well, men like steak. Let’s do a steak guide.

33:59
But realistically, people don’t come to us for steak advice. The audience you groomed now is mistaken like, what is this? Am I a cooking channel? And then they drop off. I think that’s a if I could avoid one mistake on YouTube, that would be it. story is just like my buddy. Okay, he runs a personal finance channel.

34:23
And during the pandemic, he started talking about stimulus checks, that’s where all the traffic was, and he was getting millions of views. But then now that the stimulus is over, those people aren’t watching any of his other videos, different demographic, he targets like investments, people with money. And you’re right, that that totally destroyed his channel. Yeah. But it’s sometimes this short term versus long term, right? And so we naturally always kind of had at the back of our mind, who is the person we’re talking to? What do we want? You know, what do we want?

34:52
And so that helped us kind of state a path and not jumped on these shiny objects like the stimulus checks were like, right. And we all like intuitively these like big opportunities, know, blue ocean kind of thing. I think sometimes like staying the course and being true to you can really help. Same with the thumbnails, right? It’s like there was a time when these like crazy rainbow thumbnails were super popular, right? Like, well, how does that jive with our brand?

35:22
Right? Like it doesn’t. And what I realized too, through like Eric Bandholz in all of that, the strongest thing we have and can develop is the brand. Otherwise we’re just commodities and someone comes in and, know, sells it for less or whatever. But so in the back of my head, I’m like, you know, Ralph Lauren, that kind of visual identity brand that he created where people are like, I want to be like that. I live in that house. That is just much more defensible than.

35:51
if you are just, you know, a supplier of ties or pocket squares. And in the beginning, I thought, well, you know, let’s do a lot of ties in three different lengths. In reality, there’s lots of ties out there. So it’s much harder to sell it than maybe, you know, a special set of pocket squares or something like a boutonniere where there’s just not as much competition out there. And I think I like that. never liked fields like, know,

36:19
personal real estate where I feel like there’s so many people competing in the pool and it’s people to try to outdo each other by working harder. like to be kind of a big fish in a small pond rather. So for your YouTube videos, and I think I asked Eric Banholtz this question, do you have a way of tracking people or is it just an uplift based on, you know, when a video

36:47
hits, you just naturally see a correlation in sales. Yeah, no, that’s a good one because that was always, you know, one thing that kept me from like wanting to spend a lot of advertising was like, well, how do I know the attribution? Because what I saw was like, you know, well, I sold $100,000 worth of stuff. But if I add up all my attribution, I sold $300,000 worth of stuff. So I was like, well, I didn’t, I only sold $100,000. Everyone claimed

37:17
credits for everything 100%. Well, that’s not how life works. And then we found this thing called, I look at different attribution platforms, and we found like wicked reports. So we did that and we got it early. we pay a nice price. I think it’s not more expensive now. But the concept behind it is like that you basically add UTM parameters to everything. Because on YouTube,

37:47
you know, people will likely just click through, click through cards, click through a link to the description or, and that way you can really have a better click attribution. So that now there’s, think, more sophisticated solutions in the market where they’re like, well, we use click data, we use view data. And if you have a video that goes viral and we see a correlating spike in sales, then we attribute that much to it and stuff, right? So, yeah, I always liked that attribution.

38:16
So we now on our back and say, well, we produced this type of content and this is what happened. But all the people like to always focus on the sales, right? It’s like, oh, how much it sell. But I also realized, well, there is, you you have these micro conversions where it’s like, maybe they became a subscriber, right? Maybe they became a subscriber on YouTube. Maybe they just, you know, came back and watched it. And even if they can’t buy right now, they tell a friend about it. So to me, there’s

38:44
more success than just how much they sell. And for us, it’s also like how much advertising does it generate? But then also we have a value of like, does this further our brand and brand value? So if we do a video about, let’s say, what it means to be a gentleman today, and even if this video had minimal amount of views, no sales, I would still consider it a success in the sense that we foster this kind

39:14
culture that our brands stand for. And I think that’s important too and brand building probably. And I think one thing that I’m proud of what we’re doing is that we’re not just analyzing the market like, know, SEO analysts and saying, well, what are all the things that are out there? We’ll do what’s best and try to outrank people or create skyscraper content, but that we actually sit back

39:43
with people who love this passionately and say, what would a person really want? And that allows us to create innovative content that wasn’t around before. And someone you hit a home run where you didn’t know it existed, right? Because no one else talked about it. And you just created something and that, I think people over the long term will notice, right? If you see the sixth video about…

40:12
confidence and why you should do this or that, right? And just spun in a different way. think Antonio has like four videos on how to roll up your short sleeves, for example. I mean, he’s been doing it a long time. He’s got variations of everything. Exactly. But they’ve, they’ve been super popular, right? And that’s great. And we’ve done a redo of a how to fold the pockets for video because we felt like, you know, this is so old, this could be a lot better. Let’s, let’s do it. But I’m like, I don’t, I was like, Hey, I’m, I’m proud of

40:42
doing something new, right? And other people are like, oh, they did this was successful, we’re gonna do it. And that’s okay, right? I’m not like, I had this idea, our team had this idea, and we own this. I’m like, yeah, you know, someone else can just pick it up and make a better video. And that’s cool. And I can do the same, right? We’re all it’s an ecosystem. But we, we try to not just look at the numbers, but also look at it from a brand and individual perspective. Yeah.

41:12
And it sounds like you’re able to spot trends before they become popular, right? So that you’re essentially like the pioneers once it does become a mainstream. Yeah, I mean, I think we are realistically, we are a niche content. think none of the stuff we do is really mainstream. So I don’t really look at that too much. You know, it’s like, as long as are stopping on the streets. So it’s kind of mainstream.

41:38
Okay, okay, okay. I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you mean. Yes. Yes and no. I’m like, you know, if we talk about attache cases, you know, I don’t think attache cases will ever be mainstream or like, what head fits your face shape, you know, like fedoras are not mainstream. I don’t believe they’re going to be mainstream. But I believe there’s an audience that we can serve that right.

42:04
then you’re like, oh, people who like fedoras are also interested in ascots, you know, stuff like this. Sometimes people who like to dress in a special way, right? Are interested in those unusual accessories, for example. So like, okay, let’s, let’s focus on that. Then of course you can have something like socks, right? Everyone or the market for socks is a lot bigger than the market for a boutonnier or maybe even pocket squares, right? Cause the pockets were for most men, it’s like a

42:33
celebratory thing, you know, if my wedding, I want my pocket square, my hand could shift. It’s not like they wear that every day with socks. You have the opportunity that someone potentially wears it every day. And I think, you know, when you talk to like business analysts, they’re like, well, do you have a subscription product? No. Do you have a consumable product? Well, kind of. But with a brand, right, if you build your brand on like quality and longevity, that kind of goes against that.

43:01
But we’re like, we still like that. And maybe there opportunities to do, you know, consumables like, you know, the razor companies or whatever, where you’re like, Hey, you new blades, right? Every deodorant companies, all that stuff. Maybe we’ll have a gentlemanly deodorant, right? Where we’re like, we really like that. We like the sun profile for that reason. And even Eric from Beardbrand, you know, they started with beard oils, well, now they have hair products and soap and things that are

43:31
accessible to everyone, not just people who are into beards. I’m still sure that they sell most of their stuff to people who have some connection to beards, right? Yes. My wife is looking to say, Oh, let’s buy soap from Beardbrand, unless she maybe smelled it and was like, this is amazing, right? And I want that. But at first, it’s like, that’s not for me. I’ve done it a beard. Like, why would I buy a beard brand soap? Has your YouTube channel revenue? I don’t know what the revenue breakdown is, but

43:59
I assume you make more from the e commerce than you do just YouTube revenue. Is that accurate? Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Make about 25 % from ads. You know, there’s website ads, there’s YouTube ads, and then there’s website revenue. Now, that being said, you know, it’s, we can definitely see a change in what is called RPM revenue per thousand views. Yep. It’s definitely going up. And personally, I think, you know, looking at I don’t know,

44:27
TV ads and what people pay there and YouTube what people pay there. I’m hopeful that in you know, five, 10 years from now, RPMs on YouTube will be a lot higher. And of course, if you are a main player there, and you can, you know, get the higher RPMs, and you can increase your audience and your footprint, I mean, that can lead to massive growth. And of course, that kind of revenue is, you know, there’s no

44:57
returns department. There’s no customer service. Yeah, that’s what I was getting at. Like if it’s big enough, would you ever consider just becoming a media mobile, you know, on YouTube as opposed to I, you know, I like my vision is that we are a brand that creates high quality stuff for gentlemen, not just in the clothing world, but I’m also thinking about having a nice Chesterfield sofa, right? And becoming a lifestyle brand, not for women, like

45:25
just for gentlemen in that style. That’s just something that I would find personally satisfying. So it’s something that I would drive to and I would use the revenue that I generate from the content to make that a reality, right? One of my kind of goals is not like, oh, I want to make $2 million or whatever. But it’s like, I want to host a party at the Rosecliff Mansion in Newport, Rhode Island, where people can all come and dress up and then learn from each other, hang out. And that’s something where I’m like,

45:56
that would get me really excited or how about, you we rent a cruise ship on the Nile that, you know, Agatha Christie’s Poirot was on and we do something like that, like events and maybe we bring tailors and that’s something I’m like, I want to do that. I’m not like, I just want to see where I can make the most money and do that. I’m well off. Can I always make more? Sure. But do I want to increase the channel and build a team? And yes, I do.

46:25
but not just so I can make easier money or money more quickly. So the answer is no, I would not say I’ll just become a media company because that’s where all the money is. Well, no, the reason why I was asking, I e-commerce, I use 3PL, so I guess it’s less. But, you know, there’s a lot more things to worry about, Absolutely. I mean, I don’t know what to do, but I like the, you know, the complexity of figuring it out.

46:53
Again, I always did mindset of, know, if it’s too easy, it’s easier to replicate. So if it’s more complex process, it keeps out all the amateurs, right? I felt like that about YouTube, for example, I was like, when I started Facebook was still popular and you could get a lot of organic traffic. But then, you the barriers to entry were low with Instagram, right? How many menswear Instagramers are out there? A lot. Because what’s barrier to entry, you need a phone and a filter. And that said, well, with YouTube,

47:22
to make consistently good videos, you need the gear, you need the people to edit and put it all out. So now you’re talking there’s a competitive pool of 20, maybe the largest sense, right? So I always like that being among fewer and not trying to flip houses, right? Because it’s just, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. This is why all those ecommerce business models out there that are

47:51
that appeal to most people, they’re easy, but because they’re easy, they’re actually hard. In the long term, right? Easy to get in, then to kind of stay in there, remain successful, building something, that I think gets much harder. And that’s why I like it, right? It’s like, okay, like if you want to do YouTube well, consistently, I we have a huge…

48:17
expense around that. That’s our marketing expense. Most people don’t think they think marketing and ecommerce, they immediately go to paid ads. And we’re different. like, no, for us marketing is everything that we do to bring the product to market, which for us is just that content basically.

48:38
Cool. mean, that’s the way to build a brand. I mean, many ways though, pay-per-click is faster, right? I you can just drive traffic right away. Whereas your content method is more of like a slow burn, right? A slow ascension. Exactly. More solid foundation. Yeah. And we also look at videos, and sometimes you videos that just are really strong out of the gate and then they stop. And then there are other videos, you you start, they’re just like slow burner.

49:08
but over time get you all that, you know, traffic attention and brand recognition. And I mean, if you look back, right, mean, Ralph Lauren didn’t make content and create great brand. There’s lots of brands that didn’t create that content. It was just one avenue that was available to me and I kind of liked it. I’m also a bit, you know, bummed. I think I just never figured out how to do paid ads. I think there was a time when if you figured it out,

49:37
we could have grown much faster and done things differently. So I’m not saying, you know, paid ads are bad and, and you shouldn’t do them. I’m just like, it didn’t work for us. I didn’t, I, I felt like this was more in my wheelhouse. And I think when you talk to different people, I was at e-commerce, everyone figured out an angle that worked for them. know, some people are really active on Reddit. Other people are really active in a forum. Other people do this. Right. And I’ve,

50:06
I’ve met anyone who’s like the gorilla on all the platforms, right? Some people do podcasting and they love it and it works really well for them. And I, you know, I’ve thought about podcasting and was like, nah, the barrier entries are lower, right? What do I need? A focus right box, a nice microphone. It’s easier to sit down. And it’s also probably because I personally don’t listen much to podcasts because I don’t like commuting. Then I’m not, you know, I don’t…

50:36
naturally think of it. But I realized there’s an audience on every platform. There’s people who like clothes, who love podcasts, or videos or Instagram accounts. It’s not this like, oh, people who make that amount of money, they don’t watch YouTube videos, or they don’t listen to podcasts. I don’t think that’s true. I think you can find people everywhere. And it’s just what jives with you and your channel. And I think if there was one new channel we’d focus on right now, it would be linkedin. I feel like that

51:06
drives the most with the kind of person that, you know, we may be looking at. It wouldn’t be like tick tock, you know. And sometimes or it’s funny when these new trends come along like YouTube shorts, for example. We haven’t made a single YouTube short video yet. And it’s it’s interesting when you talk to other people who’ve experimented with it and you know, YouTube obviously recognizes Hey, this is your channel. I don’t think it cannibalizes the overwatch time you have. And maybe we’re losing out. But it’s like

51:36
And it’s a bit more, you know, it’s just like dopamine rush, right? One minute short video. And I’m not saying we’re never going to do that. So far, it just hasn’t fit into our brand strategy. So we skipped that. got to your dance lessons first. What? You’re not done taking your dance lessons. Right? Well, yeah, yeah. But it’s maybe it’s wrong. know, like, there’s always this opportunity. And there’s so much opportunity, right? Oh, I could do attentive.

52:04
text message marketing, right? Or I could do use Klaviyo, I could do this, I could do that. could do and what I noticed is like, I’m actually better off a focus on one thing. absolutely. Figure out and do it right. Rather than trying to dance everywhere. Not well, because I don’t know all the dances. That’s actually great advice for anyone listening. Hey, Rafael, it’s a pleasure having you. Where can people find you if they want to know more about your business?

52:34
Gentleman’s Gazette dot com or on YouTube. I mean with the links out there. I think you know we do something on Instagram. We’re not on Twitter really Facebook a little bit But yeah YouTube and then our website is the bread and butter of what we do. Yeah And you can usually spot Rafael on the streets. He’s usually wearing a nice jacket. Maybe an ascot fedora maybe You know actually fedora’s I noticed I

53:03
I got a lot of breakouts. So when I wear fedoras for long time, I get like zits all over. I’m not a… Preston here, Preston on our team, you he wears a hat every day. It’s just how he jives. And I think I’d like the look of it, but it just doesn’t work for me in that sense. I also, you know, I also wear, I mean, I bike my daughter to school. So I wear like boat shoes and shorts and a polo shirt, right? I’m not, I always wear this. And we just, think we’re producing a video.

53:32
I don’t think it’s quite out yet, but what do we wear at home? What do we actually wear? It’s not like this. I always have to do that, but I enjoy it. I’m like, oh, what time I’m to wear, what shirt, what jacket. And I enjoyed it. I have to say, with COVID, I definitely noticed I did not wear my tuxedo at home, a black tie. It was more like I wore a pair of corduroys and a shirt and a cardigan.

54:02
I don’t have sweatpants and hoodies in my wardrobe. you have a t-shirt? don’t think I’ve… I’ve had a t-shirt like when I work out, know, I have t-shirts, but sometimes I’m also like using an old polo shirt for it or know, stuff like that. I don’t wear t-shirts to anything but a workout. Yeah. Really? Because they’re like, well, I could wear a polo shirt instead, you know, same kind of functionality. I like that more, so I wear that.

54:31
Cool, Rafael, I appreciate your time, man. It good chatting with you and I’ll see you in just a little bit, actually, in person.

54:39
Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now if you want to start a men’s clothing brand today, you pretty much need to be creating some form of content to build an audience. Now doesn’t have to be on YouTube. It can be blogging, podcasting, TikTok. Just pick your medium and stick with it. For more information about this episode, go to mywebquaterjob.com slash episode 410. And once again, I want to thank Klaviyo, which is my email marketing platform of choice for e-commerce merchants. You can easily put together automated flows like an abandoned card sequence, a post purchase flow, a win back campaign.

55:07
Basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to mywifecoupterjob.com slash KLAVIYO. Once again, that’s mywifecoupterjob.com slash KLAVIYO. I also want to thank Postscript, which is my SMS marketing platform of choice for eCommerce. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base. SMS is the next big own marketing platform, and you can sign up for free over at postscript.io slash Steve.

55:34
That’s P-O-S-T-S-U-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. Now I talk about how I these tools on my blog, and if you are interested in starting your own eCommerce store, head on over to mywifequitterjob.com and sign up for my free six day mini course. Just type in your email and understand the course right away. Thanks for listening.

00:29
But before we begin, I want to thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode. Postscript is my SMS or text messaging provider that I use for e-commerce and it’s crushing it for me. I never thought that people would want marketing text messages, but it works. In fact, my tiny SMS list is performing on par with my email list, which is easily 10x bigger. Anyway, Postscript specializes in text message marketing for e-commerce and you can segment your audience just like email. It’s an inexpensive solution, converts like crazy, and you can try it for free over at postscript.io slash Steve.

00:58
That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. I also want to thank Klaviyo, who is also a sponsor of the show. Always excited to talk about Klaviyo because they’re the email marketing platform that I use for my store and it depend on them for over 30 % of my revenue. Now you’re probably wondering why Klaviyo and not another provider. Well Klaviyo is the only email platform out there that is specifically built for e-commerce stores and here’s why it’s so powerful. Klaviyo can track every single customer who’s shopped in your store and exactly what they bought. So let’s say I want to send out an email to everyone who purchased a red handkerchief in the last week.

01:28
Easy. Let’s say I want to set up a special autoresponder sequence to my customers depending on what they bought, piece of cake, and there’s full revenue tracking on every email sent. Klaviyo is the most powerful email platform that I’ve ever used, and you can try them for free over at klaviyo.com slash my wife. That’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash my wife. And then finally, I wanted to mention my other podcast that I released with my partner Tony, and unlike this one where I interview successful entrepreneurs in e-commerce,

01:53
The Profitable Audience Podcast covers all things related to content creation and building an audience. No topic is off the table and we tell like how it is in a raw and entertaining way. So be sure to check out the Profitable Audience Podcast on your favorite podcast app. Now onto the show.

02:14
Welcome to the My Wife, Could or Jot podcast. Today I’m thrilled to have Gregory Mead on the show. Now, Greg is the founder of crossnetgame.com, which is a cool game that is a mixture of four square and volleyball. And the way I encountered Greg was pretty random. I actually first heard of Crossnet when my buddy John McDonald did a conversion critique of his website at an event that I attended. And then when I saw this critique, I was actually intrigued by the game. So I looked it up and my kids,

02:43
are hugely excited about volleyball they play. So I thought about getting this for them as a birthday gift. And then finally, a student in my class, Julia, told me that she had a cousin that would make a great interview and it just happened to be Greg, the founder of Crossnet. So Greg has managed to invent a brand new game.

03:07
That is a combination of volleyball and four square. And today we are going to delve deeply into his backstory to see how he created this successful game and business. And with that, welcome to the show, Greg. How are you doing today, Doing well. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. Hey, so first off, what is your background and how did you get the idea for this cross net game? Yeah, I guess my background since college is kind of being an entrepreneur, just trying to sell apps and like have people download stuff and doing some Amazon stuff.

03:36
And then the back story of the game is after college ended, my partner, Mike, he was an engineer. He graduated from Northeastern in Boston. was, he was building like robots and stuff. He’s like, Hey, let’s make something together. So he came over one night. We put on ESPN. We were just watching it all day, all day, the same repeats and just coming up with ideas of games to make. We eventually had like 50 ideas on a piece of paper. We crossed them all off until there was two left. Um, and it was a wall charger speaker.

04:05
and then a four square volleyball game. And we went with the four square volleyball game for sure. We went to Walmart the next day, we heated them up. We tied them up against my mom’s shed, a tree, some tape, some scissors. It was a pretty janky prototype, but we had fun with it with our friends. We invited them over and then boom, the rest was history pretty much. That’s interesting. So how did you come up with those two completely random products? I mean, I think the objective of that day when I was with Mike, was like,

04:35
let’s make a product where we can make money, right? But I think we ended up rolling with the sports concept because we grew up playing sports with each other, against each other, and we love sports. So we’re very fortunate. A game in the sports realm fell into our laps and we rolled with it. So I got to say that I think you guys, of the two products, mean, they’re both pretty hard to sell, but I would say starting a completely new game from scratch and getting people educated and to adopt it is

05:06
So a couple questions. So one, how long did it take you to just come up with the game? It sounded like you threw up the prototype in a day. Yeah, I mean that same day we were trying to make the rules, right? So we like brought it back to original force where we bounce it on the floor. So we were kind of taking those rules. Like if you get out, you’re eliminated, you go to the back of the line. And then we incorporated the 11, played 11, win by two. That’s how we play pick up basketball. That’s how volleyball is played. Sometimes I think.

05:33
I’m not a big volleyball fan. Okay, but so let me just describe the game. You can tell me if I’m wrong. So it’s like four score in volleyball and you kind of get up to the king spot, which is the four spot. And that’s how you score points only when you’re in the four spot. And when someone in the four spot loses, they go back or anyone loses, they go back to the first square, just like four square, right? Old school. Okay. So you come up with this game and it was just you and your buddy. How did you guys even play it? Well, we invited friends over so we had a good.

06:03
More than four people, yeah. then they all loved it? We all loved it. We were out there all day until someone down and then we eventually got the rules down pretty solid. All right, that’s awesome. So you have this prototype that’s like, I’m imagining this like duct tape two nets together from Walmart. How do you manufacture such a thing? Like where do even go to get that built? And it sounds expensive too to get built. Yeah, it was pretty pricey. It still is. But, Alibaba.

06:32
You go to Alibaba websites like that, that have factories. And then you just message the people at those factories and you ask, hey, can you make this for me? So we searched, literally searched volleyball net manufacturer, right? On Alibaba and started messaging every single factory and said, hey, can you combine these two? Right? Essentially. And we got a few hits and then we made some good relationships. So walk me through that. So you just go up to them and you say, hey, I want to like weld two volleyball nets together.

07:01
Yeah. So obviously Mike’s an engineer. So he’s got like all the CAD blueprints and all the nerdy stuff. So we send them that, right? It’s like, hey, this is what we need. Can you do it? Yes or no. And then some of them would say no. Some would say yes. And then you take, you obviously take the best people that say yes and you put them against each other and try to get the best price and quality. So did you have CAD drawings before you approached the vendors? Yes. Okay. And then just walk me through these steps. Cause these are the interesting steps that the listeners like to hear. So

07:29
You went up to them with the thing and then you got a, did you get a sample made? Yeah, numerous samples throughout our first year. It took pretty much a whole entire year to get the final prototype we were happy with to start the launch. Even that prototype sucked. Did you end up ever having to go over there and visit the factory? Not me. Mike did. He’s gone two or three times now. He’s gotten some like a car accident over there too. So I don’t know if he wants to go back.

07:57
Wait, so okay, so did that happen more in the beginning or later on during production? Well, the first year Mike went over, then the second year he went over, and then COVID hit. So then we haven’t been back since. So we’d usually go over at least a few times a year, if possible. I would have been there by now, but COVID messed everything up. Yeah, because I have a buddy who made baby strollers. for something, and I classify your product like that. It’s got a bunch of moving parts, different materials, metal, know, fabric, everything.

08:25
he ended up having to fly over there just because like little quality issues here and there, or even with like the little parts that are involved, all kept getting messed up as he was building his prototype. How many iterations did it take for you guys to get to your final design? Oh man, a ton, a ton. I don’t know the top off top of my head, probably five or 10 at least. or 10, okay. Yeah, every time we get it, it’d be like, oh, this pole is good, but the net stinks, Then the net gets back.

08:55
it’s good. And then the polls messed up or something. Yeah, a lot of moving parts. took, like I said, it took about a year to finally get that nice prototype. And then how much money did you invest just to kind of get started before production? Yeah. So me and my partner, Mike, and my brother, other partner, Chris, we all took out all of our money. was about 30 to 40 grand and dumped it all into inventory. And then once we sold that, we took all that money and then reinvested it all back into inventory again in marketing.

09:23
and just kept doing that for years. All right. So let me ask you this. Did you have like, did you know the game was going to be a hit before you invested that 40 grand? Absolutely. Oh, you did. Okay. How did you do that? I just knew it personally. Oh, you just knew it personally. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess before that 40 grand purchase, went to a beach right in there against at Rhode Island, where we grew up going, we brought a sample and we went to go just play me, Mike, Chris, and like two of our other friends just to go play and have fun.

09:53
we love the game. We didn’t end up playing it because 40 teenage kids got in line and asked to play instead of us. So that’s how we knew it was a smash for sure. Oh, okay. All right. So was it just like that one incident or were there multiple incidents? It happens every time. It still happens to random customers. I feel like every time you set it up at a popular spot, people will ask to take photos, jump in, play. yeah, at one time was a big moment for us.

10:22
because that was pre-launch and we’re like, wow, this is it. All right, sweet. Okay. So that’s how you validated that it was going to work. And then what was your first order like? Cause I imagine making these things is pretty pricey. Yeah. I think we only, I think it was like 300 units. Okay. That’s not too bad. And it held us over for a little while. It got us through summer and then we the reorder and then, you know, wait months.

10:49
Yeah, actually, how long was the production? So it took you about a year to just produce the product into something that you were happy with, right? Yeah. And then so you order 300 units. And then how do you sell those first 300 units? Twitter word of mouth. Twitter. Okay, well, let’s talk about Twitter real quick. How did you when I think of Twitter, I think of using Twitter for like beta business services or software like I don’t usually think of like sports equipment.

11:18
Yeah, lot of people don’t know is Twitter is used to be big. You just have a bunch of meme parody pages. Me and my network. That’s how we blew up as entrepreneurs, I guess, back in the day. We’d run like these these meme accounts and just get millions of impressions a day and we’d sell them, buy ads with them. And we did that. That was when Crossnet started. And then Jack Dorsey removed all the accounts. So Twitter got we lost all our accounts. But why did he do that? Oh, just politics.

11:46
Oh, okay. So those two means I got it. Got it. But I mean, those people aren’t interested in sports though, right? Would those accounts have even helped you? Yeah. Well, they’re not just, they’re just all general niche pages, right? So the general audience will see and then we’ll eventually get some sales because I can get the impressions for very cheap. And then another cool tactic was we’d actually show up to the beach, right? So we moved, we all moved to Florida. In our first week in Florida, we were just like playing the game every day, 24 seven on the beach. And we’d show up to like, I remember we went up to like Nikki beach in South beach.

12:16
And we were, I remember vividly of people ordering that same day after we played with them. So we’d go play on Nikki beach and then we get an order from Miami beach in that area code from the kids parents, I guess. But it was really cool to see. So it was like a snowball effect in person and then online as well. And then we did have a very viral moment on Facebook. We woke up to like 10 million views on a Facebook post on this random dude’s page one day. Describe the video.

12:42
It was a Olympian video. So we had four, we sent them across and out to four Olympian athletes. um, Oh man. What’s the country with the, with the waning, I think, or one of those countries. That’s random. We got to dig into all this. So how did you even get the contact information or how’d you even think to send it to these guys? It was a while ago, but I think they hit us up. They’re like, Hey, can we get across that? And we said, yeah, sure. We’ll send you one. Um, good people. I think we still, we’re still in touch with them pretty, pretty solid right now, but yeah, they, posted it. They posted their video and then a random user took it.

13:12
like a random Facebook ad, right? He took the video and he posted, said, wow, check out this four square volleyball game. And then it blew up and we woke up to like orders, orders, orders, like what’s going on. But it was like, we found the video eventually because it was hard to find. We didn’t know where the money was coming from. And that video definitely helped us for sure. And then we took that video and we kept running ads on it. We still run ads on it to this day. Oh, and that same video and it converts still. Yeah. You’ve probably seen it. I probably have probably have seen it actually.

13:41
All right, wait, so back to Twitter. Describe to me a strategy on how you promote something on Twitter, like a physical product. Yeah, I mean, like you take a video, UGC video of people playing, you caption it, foursquare meets volleyball, and then you put a link under it and you run ads on it. You buy impressions from… Oh, you buy Twitter ads? Not through Twitter platform. Oh, you still walk me through it, sorry. Through meme pages.

14:09
So like if there’s a volleyball page like at volleyball lovers, right. And has a hundred K I’m going to buy retweets off that page. Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. So you’re paying the owner to just tweet your tweet, product in your video, retweet it. Yeah. Retweet. Right. Oh, retweet. Okay. So you have a Twitter account already. Does your Twitter account need to have a whole bunch of followers before you use this strategy or no, not at all. at all. Okay. So you created like a volleyball Twitter account and then you started paying influencers to retweet.

14:38
your stuff. Well, so we have our cross and account, right? have a cross and Twitter account. And then we’d hit up there’s people in this network where there’s they have mean pages, different style pages, different niches, different, you know, audiences, volleyball, humor, sports, right. And then we buy retweets off of those pages. Right. What’s the going rate for a retweet? Like, how do you even know how much to pay? And how do you know they’re willing to do it for you? Paid by impressions. So every hundred thousand impressions, you pay anywhere from 10 to 20 dollars.

15:09
for 100,000 impressions, that’s dirt cheap. Yeah, it is. It’s a secret sauce. Okay. All right. Wait, okay. So walk me through this. So how do you approach a Twitter account owner?

15:22
Good question. Find a meme page you like. Okay. And then DM them, ask them for their rates. Just like you’re going to buy a shout out on Instagram or something. So is this a standard practice? No, this is very underground stuff. And this is how I was able to grow, you know, across that from the beginning. So like the typical user, I actually just worked on growing my Twitter account. actually doubled it in like the last six to eight months by getting other people, but mainly my friends to just retweet my stuff. This is a similar thing.

15:52
I actually haven’t had anyone approach me to pay though. like if you just approach a random Twitter user and offered to pay, mean, does that get a pretty good hit rate? I mean, I don’t usually do that. Like just like a famous like entrepreneur dude you’re saying. Or just, you know, these meme pages, is it expected? Like are they expecting to be paid for? You know what saying? Like, oh, are. Okay. I think so. Like why would you be building a page like with 500,000 followers, right? Like you need to make money.

16:21
But this practice used to be very popular five years ago before we called the purge the people in the Twitter community. We lost all of our accounts. I can understand if it got political, but like a volleyball Twitter account. Just all types of pages, all types of mean pages, like the biggest pages back on Twitter, like five years ago, 10 years ago, there was like parody music pages. Parody like interesting.

16:48
Yeah, it’s definitely off ground. It’s unique. If you guys ever need impressions and you’re listening, just message me. Does it work still today? It depends on the product. Oh, okay. Interesting. the product. It depends on if it’s unique. It depends on the price across that. It doesn’t really work anymore for sales. Oh, doesn’t work for you guys anymore? Not anymore. No, it’s definitely changed. mind’s at it. mean, your product is unique and interesting.

17:12
The price point is pretty high. The price point is too high. We actually started cross net selling at one hundred dollars, which is very unique to hear. And we ended up boosting it up to hundred fifty dollars. But even at one hundred fifty dollars, I think it’s really inexpensive because I’m thinking I paid almost three hundred dollars for my volleyball set. Yeah, that’s as a volleyball lover. Right. You’re going to pay that money. But as a normal ninety, ninety five percent of our consumers are just like mom and dad’s buying for their teenage kid. Right. That doesn’t play well. And one hundred dollars is

17:42
pretty hefty, I guess. It’s right in that fine line. So Twitter’s not the best for impulse $150 purchases. Got it. Got it. So the price point maybe is probably like the impulse buy of like 50 bucks, maybe, maybe the price point for Twitter. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, that’s cool. Okay. So you got your initial sales by just playing your sport, which is pretty awesome. Yeah. And then you use Twitter to just get those initial sales. And then how quickly did you sell those first 300 units? you remember, think it took the entire summer. So like,

18:12
four months, whatever that is, March to August. That’s a lot of playing cross net right there. So basically you play cross net every day. that’s pretty sweet. We did. We pretty much pulled up to a beach every day and just played. That’s awesome. Yeah. One thing I noticed on your site is that I noticed that you held a tournament and then you had some, I think those Olympians, I think you had that video on your site. How did you get influencers and then how did that tournament idea go? Cause I know I like

18:41
to attend AVP volleyball tournaments and that sort of thing. Just curious what it’s like. Yeah. So from the influencer side, it took a while for us to get respected in like the volleyball community. But once you get a few people, start, other people start seeing it and it just kind of like a snowball effect, kind of like the sales of the game as well. But it definitely took two or three years to really get, you know, respected in that volleyball community. A lot of the volleyball people didn’t like it at first or know what it was or want to be associated with it.

19:08
But once you make that one relationship, that person sends you to another person, that person sends you another person and they have a, you know, it’s a tight circle in the volleyball community. And it is actually, how do you get respected? I think having them actually play it, right? Okay. At first people like we, the first beach tournament we ever showed it up to, to like do like to try to sell as a vendor. We set the cross map. No one played for like two of the three days. The third day we’re like, no one’s going to play. We’ll just go like swim in the ocean.

19:37
So we went to go swim, we came back and then everyone was playing the game, all the volleyball athletes and there was crazy rallies and then they ended up falling in love with it. So they need to play it, you need to play it and then once you get the hang of it, understand the rules, the concept, it’s a hit for them. And now we have the doubles version out. So it’s two, one, two, one, two, one, two. So once you get that set up and they play that, they have a teammate, bumps that spike, gets intense. Yeah, actually that sounds a lot more attractive than the single player game, at least to me, at least to me.

20:06
So I love it. Sorry. Let me just regurgitate what you just said. So you set these nets up at tournaments you said at AVP tournaments. Yeah, I think the first one was an AVP tournament. Don’t quote me on that though. That’s okay. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of like a casual conversation. I know this is a long time ago, right? A while ago since you launched. yeah, it’s three years ago. But okay, so did you also just go down the AVP list and just start sending these nets to people? Yeah, pretty much like we just like go hard on Instagram. Hey, do you want a net for content? Do you want it for content? And

20:35
We lost some money doing that too. So if you’re watching your business owner and you want to like see your product, just be super cautious about who you’re, you know, making that relationship with. It was a mistake on our end financially to send all those nets. Granted, we got some good content, but you want to like genuinely send the people that have interest in your product or game or whatever it is. Yeah. So what’s your process now actually? Yeah, right now it’s pretty much only send to people that are interested. So if they reach out to us and we have like a good solid conversation,

21:04
we’ll send it to you for content, right? And then we put those people on retainers if they give us content. If we like it. Okay. So for these people, are they primarily volleyball players or you just get people who are just really into it? Yeah. So a lot last year we went crazy on volleyball players, the community, and we would have like 10 athletes on retainer, um, monthly, just making great content. But at the end of the day, we realized like, that’s awesome. We get great content, but for like,

21:33
the mom, 56 year old mom from like Nebraska, she has no idea who that volleyball player is. And she just wants her like eight year old in the yard just to tap it with his buddies. like, we don’t need spiking and stuff. the content we realized we didn’t really need the volleyball content as much as we need the mom and dad playing with the kids content. That makes a lot of sense. Cause this is still kind of niche. Cause I think we were just talking about this earlier before we even started recording. Volleyball.

22:00
in itself, like just volleyball, not cross-net. There’s not a lot of money in there. One of my acquaintances bought the AVP several years ago and it’s kind of like this money pit, even though people love the sport. And so, yeah, if you can get like just families to adopt this, that’d be amazing. Yeah, that’s the mission this year is to focus back to like our core roots of just anyone who loves this game. So let’s get it out and get that content out. There’s another game that I see a lot of people play, which is similar. I think it’s called Spikeball. I think so.

22:30
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, are they, uh, are they one of your arch competitors or something? guess so we can call it that, but no, they’re, they’re, um, it’s a great game and, uh, helps brought in the outdoor community. So they help us. We help them. Yeah. So, I mean, what you’re trying to do essentially, cause I see little kids playing that and, and, I mean, they’re not volleyball athletes. It’s the same type of thing, right? Yeah. Same concept. Um, you see more like, I would say college at kids playing that kind of game. It’s more intense when, when

22:59
closer range, it’s a hand-eye coordination for that game. But I feel like that’s a broader audience. Actually, I would agree with that because you have to, I tried it once and you actually have to be in pretty good shape to play that, so it’s intense. How do you educate people about the game? Like, I can see like putting just the net up, but like how do people even know what the rules are? How do you educate people? Yeah, that has been the hardest part to date. You can ask any of our founders that question, it’s the hardest thing.

23:29
It just takes time. It could take time. But when the user starts playing, you’re going to get a real book, you’re going to get assembly, you’re going to get the QR code to scan and you’re going to see the gameplay, right? We’re going give you videos. We’re going to walk you through the steps. I mean, it’s not to you by, I mean, just, yeah. Yeah. So right now pre-buy, right? If somebody goes sees out at a beach and they go play with a random person, there’s going be a QR code, hopefully on the net soon and you can scan it and then you can see the role.

23:57
But education is going to take time. Like I want 10 years from now, want, you a random mom, dad, kid to walk past that cross net and know the rules of cross net, similar to, we know how to play soccer. We know how to play football, basketball, you know? So that’s, that’s definitely a learning curve. It’s difficult though. It just education through the game. And once you purchase it, learn the rules and, really hone into those rules and stick to it. Can we talk about like the revenue streams? Is like your revenue stream, like only the net?

24:26
or are you selling other things, services or anything like that? We have the Crossnet, we have the Crossnet doubles add-on, which is the longer extended net for two on two on two on two. And then we have a pool model. I don’t know if you saw that, it’s our H2O I did, yeah. Did that just come out? Yeah, it came out last year. We dropped like 2000 of them. Then we sold out really fast. This year we’re excited to relaunch it with a new, better improved net. So the pool model will do well this year. And then we have some other cool.

24:54
you know, games coming out this year, cross net pickleball, hopefully, which is exciting. Wait, walk me through that. So it’s like a four thing and then you it’s like, just pickleball. It’s literally the way it sounds. Yeah, square. Okay. Ingenious. Okay. And then I guess that probably doesn’t work with tennis as well. Now tennis is a little too bouncy. yeah, I love it. Crossnet soccer to coming out in about 15 days.

25:22
If you sell on Amazon or run any online business for that matter, the most important aspect of your long-term success will be your brand. And this is why I work with Steven Weigler and his team from Emerge Council to protect my brand over at Bumblebee Linens. Now what’s unique about Emerge Council is that Steve focuses his legal practice on e-commerce and provides strategic and legal representation to entrepreneurs to protect their IP. So for example, if you’ve ever been ripped off or knocked off on Amazon, then Steve can help you fight back and protect yourself.

25:51
Now, first and foremost, protecting our IP starts with a solid trademark and Emerge Council provides attorney-advised strategic trademark prosecution, both in the United States and abroad for a very low price. And furthermore, the students in my course have used Steve for copyrighting their designs, policing against counterfeits and knockoffs, agreements with co-founders and employees, website and social media policies, privacy policies, vendor agreements, brand registry, you name it. So if you need IP protection services, go to EmergeCouncil.com and get a free consult.

26:20
And if you tell Steve that I sent you, you’ll get a hundred dollar discount. That’s E-M-E-R-G-E-C-O-U-N-S-E-L dot com. Now back to the show. This is my next question then. So how do you protect this IP? mean, can anyone with just two nets put this together and clone your stuff? Legally, no. We have a patent. A lot of people like to breach that patent. So we’ll

26:49
So you, I mean, it costs money to fight these. Have you had to, the fact that people are copying you means it’s super popular already. So have you spent a lot of money like beating back those clones? Not too much money yet. We have a good legal team on our side this year and we’re going to go bonkers with legal and try to get our market share back. But at the end of the day, you have copycats and people are copying you, means you’re doing well and the product is successful.

27:18
do everything we can to educate our cross that being the foundation. Even if someone goes and picks up a knockoff from Target or wherever, you’re still playing cross then. So let me ask you this. So outside of just selling the physical products, do you have any other plans to… I noticed you held… I saw on your website that you held a tournament and I think before we got on, you said that was actually really tough.

27:45
What are the plans to just proliferate the brand so that no one can really knock you off easily, right? Yeah, mean, tournaments wise, right? It’s it’s a whole different ball game. You don’t want to rush into that. I know we were speaking about it earlier before we got on rushing into like creating a sport is is a bad idea, I think, unless the sports are already known, you know how to play it. Right. So this is a brand new thing, brand new concept. It’s similar to volleyball, but people don’t understand the rules like we were just talking about. So.

28:13
The best idea is just to sell the units, get the game out there, let people love it, enjoy it, play it with their friends, meet up with other people, create tournaments of themselves smaller. And then it’ll just grow and grow and grow. We tried to jump into like any ESPN tournament, which looked really cool, right? It was actually, it looked really cool. It was amazing. The best rallies I’ve ever seen, but we had to like kind of force people to come down to go play for money. Right. And there was a $10,000 grand prize. It just wasn’t organic and we want it to be natural. So.

28:43
Oh, I didn’t realize there was prize. Okay. So you gave out prize money and then do people have to pay to enter? Um, no. No. Okay. Amazing. Okay. Yeah. was a good way. that cool footage. mean, that was the first video I watched actually. It lended a lot of credibility. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why we did it. Yeah. At the end of the day, we knew it was going to be tough, but it’s great, you know, for content.

29:06
So you mentioned there have been phases in your business. So I imagine year one was getting the game out the door and getting it made and that sort of thing. And then you said year two was volleyball influencers, right? Last year was volleyball influencers. The second year was also light volleyball. Light volleyball. And then this year is just getting families and it being popular. So walk me through your strategy for this year. So how do you actually find these families?

29:33
A lot of them come naturally, right? Like we’ll get DMs throughout the day, just like, Hey, I love your game. I love the content. Um, and then we’ll, know, we have, we have a good marketing team and we hone in on them and see if the engagement’s good. If the communication is good, if they’re just trying to like bullshit you for a free product, right? Yeah. We really, we’re really good at that now. We know how to scope it out. Um, so that’s for the info side, we do that. And then, like I said, selling the game and just going back to our core roots of getting people out and playing, like just go play, go play, go play and people, you know, see this content.

30:03
Naturally. Interesting. Okay. And then what, what are your primary revenue drivers? Are you running ads? Yeah, we run Google ads, Facebook ads, TikTok ads. Facebook obviously has taken a toll on the entire world in the last, what is it? Six months, eight months. It’s been a nightmare. So Facebook’s definitely getting harder. we’re, we’re primarily wholesale right now, actually. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. So are you in a lot of sto-

30:33
I think I saw you were on in Dix and a whole bunch of sporting stores. How does that process work? Like how do you even approach like a huge retailer like Dix? Yeah, I mean like LinkedIn DMs, honestly. Okay, walk me through that. How does that work? Yeah, so literally just find a buyer like go so type you got the store right if you’re selling a food product right you have a food product and it’s it’s a natural food product and you want to go in Whole Foods. Go to go to type in Whole Foods on LinkedIn.

31:04
Go to people, connect with them all, don’t message them, wait a few days, then message them. So it doesn’t seem like you’re thirsty and then say, Hey, this is blah, blah, blah from blah, blah. I have a cool product. We’ll offer for whole foods, get their hands on it. Something natural like that. And if they respond, you know, have that conversation for us. It’s a bit easier, I would say compared to a food or a drink, less competition. And it’s a brand new product that, you know, these stores need.

31:33
Dix needs new innovative games, Walmart needs new stuff in their aisles. So granted, would say crossnet is a little easier to pitch in the sports niche than another drink coming into the Whole Foods. But LinkedIn, LinkedIn, Chris, our partner brother, has done a great job of that. And we still do it. We just got another wholesale deal yesterday just from literally a LinkedIn outreach. That’s cool. So how did the wholesale arrangements typically work? Is it on consignment? Or do they buy units from you, like upfront?

32:03
Yeah, they they purchase they place POs and then we have net 60 terms and net 90 terms. Maybe 90 terms. Yeah, yeah, sucks. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So the people listening like these net terms means that they don’t have to pay you until after 90 days for products. I guess that’s I mean, they have control, right? I mean, these are large retailers. So yeah, can’t argue with them. Can’t argue with them. So so just based on the sales, they’ll order more as needed.

32:31
Yeah, in the, you know, the sell the rate in the season. Summer they purchase for summer now, right? So they’re prepping summer orders to go into Dix and all these stores. So are they buying like huge quantities? Yeah, yes. So stores and stuff. So you have to float that money then right? Yeah, long time. Yeah, we’ve been using our personal money to purchase POs for the last four years, which kind of a mistake, I guess we finally just got PO financing.

33:00
I was going to ask you, like, you raised any money for this? Because this is I mean, these nets aren’t cheap. Yeah, no, we haven’t we haven’t sold any equity yet. We’ve finally just took a appeal finance out, which is, you know, nice. Probably should have done that a few years ago. So for the listeners who don’t know what that is, can you just kind of describe how that works? Yeah. So we get money up front from a lender bank. There’s different types of, you know, avenues you can go through and they front you the money for the inventory and then you just pay back interest on top of that. So say we’re spending

33:30
We need $100,000. They let us borrow it and we pay back $125,000. Yeah. So, uh, do you have to show them a PO? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. For most of them. Yeah. There’s actually a whole, for anyone listening, there’s actually a whole bunch of services out there now that just based on your, I don’t know you have a Shopify store, but they can just take your Shopify. They linked to your bank account and they see what your sales have been. They’ll just give you a loan that way. Um, I’m sure you guys looked into all these things. We’ve had a circus, you know,

33:59
people who are and not freaking out. yeah, but we do have to show the POs primarily for the majority of them, especially if they’re large orders. Like we just have a huge order from Sam’s Club this year. Nice. Which we’re super excited for, but it costs a lot to make. Yeah. Yeah. So when you sell these on your own website, are you not allowed to make the price on your website cheaper than the retailer? Yeah, we have to honor the retailer.

34:26
keep the price similar. can do discounts and have our own sales. But it’s unethical to do that. Yeah. Are you guys on Amazon? Yeah, we are. Okay. So this is considered like an oversized product also, right? And then you have to… Yeah. It’s pretty oversized. It’s like 20 pounds. We have pallets. How’s the Amazon channel been for you guys? Amazon’s great. Amazon is the best. If you have a product that fits Amazon well, make sure you’re…

34:55
Your content on Amazon is good. Your images, your text, your font, Amazon’s great. It’s primarily, should be majority of your DTC numbers if it’s Amazon. Do you guys do a lot of email marketing for, okay. Yeah. Email is unreal for us. think we’re at like right now 25, 30 % of our revenue from DTC is email.

35:20
Shout out Chase Diamond and the Boundless Labs team. he’s speaking at Seller Summit. Cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. Oh, you guys. Oh, okay. So maybe that’s why they use you as an example at Geek Out then. Oh yeah. Geek Out. Yeah. Shackleford. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you guys did use John McDonald, right? The good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Same crowd. Same crowd. Oh, that’s funny. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So

35:46
Email marketing though, like it seems like someone would just buy this product once and not buy again, right? So do you, is email for repeat business or what is it for? Yeah, it is. It’s tough with, know, we don’t have clothing. We’re not dropping new drops every Friday, but it’s tough. So the email marketing is great to capture, make that sale. And then we have to educate the consumer. Like we were talking about earlier, it’s like how to play. So we send them informational stuff. We send them discounts. Maybe they can sell it to their friend. We’ll give them money.

36:14
Um, we have new product, like when we drop a pickleball, the person that has a cross-up Bible is going to most likely be interested in the pickleball too, if they love the cross them. So we upsell those as well. Uh, I see. So to get them on though, you have to educate them first. So what’s their incentive to get on your list in the first place? We switch it all the time, but when you go to our website, there’s a good, there’s going to be a pop-up for a discount, a chance to win a bundle. Uh, a lot of things we switch it, we test, AB test a lot. And then when you go to close it, we’ll have an exit and tenant pop-up as well.

36:44
which, you know, we’ll have for a 10 % discount, whatever. Do you sell accessories as well? Like the actual balls and like, yeah, Right now we have a cool partnership with Wilson for optics ball, which is like the famous ball in the space. So we have a Wilson ball and we have another partnership coming out hopefully this year with another ball that I cannot mention right now. Okay. All right. So it seems like there’s actually a bunch of opportunities for upsells, like in terms of

37:15
Yeah, it’s, we’re working on it. Um, it’s tough though. can’t just roll out 10 things at one time. Right. So that’s true. Yeah. Are you guys doing any other forms of marketing like a SMS messenger, all those things? Yeah. SMS, Google. Why does Google work for you guys? Cause people aren’t searching for, for cross. I guess you can bid on your own brand, but outside of that. Well, we definitely have to use Google just because our competitors too. So like when you type force work, like

37:44
The person that doesn’t know what our game is called, they’re going to type in four square volleyball, four-way volleyball. We don’t want competitors popping up, so we have to own that market share. Got it. So these are just like… The fact that people are even searching for these is impressive, actually. Yeah. But there can’t be a lot of search volume, I would imagine, right? The conversion rate on those keywords must be super high.

38:07
Yeah, I would have to double check that but it’s fun. not too high, I’m sure. But like that person that walks past at the beach and is too scared to go ask someone what that is, they’re just gonna go Google like four way net, right? And we want to pop up. Walk me through your TikTok stuff. Are you guys making TikToks right now? Yeah, we are. We started off really well last year. We grew like 20k, 25k in like a few months, which is good for us, I think.

38:34
And then now we’re, kind of got stagnant. We’ve got verified. I’m not sure if verified slowed us down because we can’t use trending sounds made it more difficult. So be aware if you want to get verified and tick tock, make sure you’re making the right call. So talk to your rep. But yeah, it’s been, it’s been challenging this year so far. Obviously everyone’s like tick tock, tick tock, tick tock blow up. And it is, that’s true. Like everyone should be focusing on tick tock, not Instagram. Instagram algorithm sucks right now. Tick tock’s algorithm is good.

39:02
But right now we kind of got stagnant and we came out with this cool idea where we’re to kind of have like a series of like, have this, we have this college kid, name is Mason, Mason Briggs. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. He’s pretty, pretty well known in the college space and he’s going to make some cool videos with just random people. Like he’ll be setting a cross now up at the beach and like Long Beach. And he’ll be like, Hey, play me with your friend for a transfer $100 similar to the videos you see, you probably see on like TikTok scrolling. Yeah. Yeah. So we’re to put some like stories behind it.

39:30
comical stuff behind it and try to get those viral and get some more followers from them. Have TikTok ads been working for you guys? We have done them slightly, right? Hasn’t shown too much promise right now. Okay. Yeah. Like I said, we have a high price product compared to the TikTok products that do well. I know products that have high price points that have no one on TikTok.

39:57
We’re also seasonality too. So it’s March right now. That’s true. It’s getting warmer. So we’re going to wait another month and then crank it up. So I’m sure it will do well. I guess on the flip side though, the high price point does make advertising a little easier in terms of ROI, right? Yes, it does. It’s the same concept though. I think if the product’s $50 and you got to spend 20 instead of 70, right? It’s, it does though. You get, you get a little more room. I was thinking like,

40:24
for you guys, like just getting the lead and then educating them on your email list and that sort of thing, getting them excited. The numbers could probably work pretty well, I would imagine. Yeah, it certainly does. It certainly does. And for something like us, it takes a lot, you know, it take a consumer eight times to purchase it, right? So getting them on the list is very, very important. And that’s why I shout out Chase all the time, because he does a great job with our team working. Yeah. what’s the Facebook ad situation with you guys right now? Because I know, like I talked to a lot of people, obviously.

40:54
Um, and it’s, it’s a, it’s kind of like still a shell of its former self for a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, it’s tough. The Facebook, like our CPAs just went through the roof, right? Like we spent $40 to get a customer, which is cool for us. Now it’s like 80 and we’re kind of like honing back and just being smart and strategic. We don’t want to be wasting money. Right. Um, and also for us, it’s way more challenging than the normal DTC brand because we’re in.

41:23
every retail store in America besides Target. So it’s like, where does that spend go? And it’s very hard to attribute. We try our best to have a good Murr or Roas, but it’s very hard. Yeah, it’s almost like, and I’m just speaking out of my butt right now, but it’s almost like you need a critical mass, right? And then it’ll just sell itself. So retail shops and just making sure people get their hands on and getting people excited about it. It’s like a real long-term play actually. Yeah, it’s definitely a legacy.

41:51
product we call it. It’s going to be around for years and years, decades. once it gets to the mass, it’ll naturally flow and people will be. And then people will just advertise for you, right? I mean, yeah. They do that now. You know, it’s set up in someone’s front yard and you drive past, you break your neck, almost crash your car and you’re looking at the cross there, right? So you know what it is and you see it. Yeah. No, it’s really cool. mean, it’s like super challenging. I have friends who sell board games and that’s like super challenging because, yours is

42:22
it’s arguably harder, right? Actually, no, it might be easier because you can physically see these people play. Yeah, I would say it’s easier. Yeah, I think it’s easier. Yeah. Yeah, it’s easier. But it’s still tough, And your of goods is higher too. So yeah, it makes it more scary for us just like, right, like, right financially, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you this. And for the people listening out there, if you were to start all over again, would you have chosen such a hard product as your first

42:51
stab into, is this your first stab into e-commerce or? No, I’ve owned two other companies. yeah, okay, okay. So you were a veteran. this is my first like baby though, like I’ve really had passion for love it. And I don’t think I would change the thing. Absolutely not. Right. Oh, I was expecting you to say that, but for someone like, uh, who’s just starting out, you wouldn’t recommend them try to start an entirely new game, right? Or, or would you?

43:18
Well, I wouldn’t recommend anyone to start a sport because then you’re competing with me and you’re going to have trouble. um, well, doesn’t have to be volleyball. mean, just kidding. No, definitely start to be innovative, man. Like be innovative, do something new, unique. I’m, personally sick of seeing the same, you know, juices, the, the canned good, like the same stuff. It’s, it’s on repeat and they do well and then they die and then they, know, another one pops up, but be innovative, uh, make something that’s going to last and, you know, turn people’s heads.

43:47
Yeah, Greg, you know what I’m sick of? I’m sick of all the cheap stuff that people just knock off and just throw online. Like the TikTok ads are like the worst actually. Yeah, I try to stay off TikTok. Yeah. Because it’s just all junk when you when you get it and it’s cheap, which is why it works, I guess. But it’s actually refreshing to see someone take on something challenging and something as cool as crossnet. And my kids are super into volleyball. I’m gonna get them a set. And I guess the only issue is

44:17
getting four people, like my wife doesn’t play, so I’d have to get like a fourth. Yeah, that’s the tough part sometimes. You’re like, oh, I got three people and it’s like, ah man, I need one more. So that’s the pain point across that, but I don’t know, you get more social. You’re right, I gotta make new friends, Greg, that’s exactly what it is. But man, hey, this is really cool, thanks lot for coming on. Where can people pick up a set? Where can they find you if they wanna find out what the rules are? I know we didn’t really talk about the rules that much, but where can they find more?

44:46
head over to crossnetgame.com. can type crossnet and Google will pop up. Literally click the link. We’ll have rules on the website. You can check it out. You can purchase from there. You can purchase from Sheels, Dix, Walmart, Academy Sports, and a bunch of others. And avoid the knockoffs because chances are the workmanship is not nearly as good as the real thing. That’s true. All right. Take care, Greg. Wait a minute, man. Nice talking to you.

45:13
Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now after listening to Greg, I hope you appreciate how difficult it is to launch a brand new game to the market. But he’s managed to create an amazingly fun game that’s catching on like wildfire. For more information about this episode, go to mywifecoderjob.com slash episode 408. And once again, I want to thank Postcode, which is my SMS marketing platform of choice for e-commerce. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base. SMS is the next big own marketing platform.

45:40
and can sign up for free over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-E-R-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. I also want to thank Klaviyo, which is my email marketing platform of choice for eCommerce merchants. You can easily put together automated flows like an abandoned card sequence, a post purchase flow, a win back campaign, basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to mywifecoderjob.com slash K-L-A-V-I-Y-O. Once again, that’s mywifecoderjob.com slash K-L-A-V-I-Y-O.

46:08
Now we talk about how to use these tools in my blog, and if you are interested in starting your own ecommerce store, head on over to mywifecoderjob.com and sign up for my free 6 day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.

00:28
But before we begin, want to thank Klaviyo for sponsoring this episode. Always excited to talk about Klaviyo because they’re the email marketing platform that I personally use for my ecommerce store and it depends on them for over 30 % of my revenue. Now you’re probably wondering why Klaviyo and not another provider. Well Klaviyo is the only email platform out there that is specifically built for ecommerce stores and here’s why it’s so powerful. Klaviyo can track every single customer who has shopped in your store and exactly what they bought. So let’s say I want to send out an email to everyone who purchased a red handkerchief in the last week. Easy.

00:56
Let’s say I want to set up a special autoresponder sequence to my customers depending on what they bought, piece of cake, and there’s full revenue tracking on every email sent. Klaviyo is the most powerful email platform that I’ve ever used. You can try them for free over at klaviyo.com slash my wife. That’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O dot com slash my wife. I also want to thank Postscript for sponsoring this episode. Now if you run an e-commerce business of any kind, you know how important it is to own your customer contact list. This is why I focus a significant amount of my efforts on SMS marketing.

01:25
SMS or text message marketing is already a top five revenue source for my ecommerce store and I couldn’t have done it without Postscript which is my text message provider. Now why did I choose Postscript? It’s because they specialize in ecommerce and ecommerce is their only focus. Not only is the tool easy to use but you can quickly segment your audience based on your exact sales data and implement automated flows like an abandoned cart at the push of a button. Not only that but it’s price well too and SMS is the perfect way to engage with your customers.

01:53
So head on over to postscript.io slash Steve and try it for free. That’s P-O-S-T-S-U-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. And then finally, I wanted to mention my other podcasts that I released with my partner Tony. And unlike this one, where I interviewed successful entrepreneurs in e-commerce, the Profitable Audience podcast covers all things related to content creation and building an audience. No topic is off the table and we tell it like how it is in a raw and entertaining way. So be sure to check out the Profitable Audience podcast on your favorite podcast app.

02:22
Now on to the show.

02:30
Welcome to the My Wife Quarter Job podcast. Today, my friend Stephen Weigler back on the show. And Steve is an IP protection lawyer and he’s an expert when it comes to fighting the counterfeiters and the copycats on Amazon. And in this episode, we’re going to talk about exactly that. So Steve, welcome back to the show. Steve, it’s always good to hear your voice and I look forward to seeing you soon. And it’s been a while. It has been a while. And I know you’ve been on the show before, but just in case.

03:00
Someone out there is listening who’s not heard of you before. Just give a quick like 60 second background. Sure. So I am a professional. I’m an attorney and I focus on intellectual property and business asset protection. And so in intellectual property, we do a lot of trademark, copyright, trade secret, and sometimes refer to patent attorneys for intellectual property protection. Also when infringement occurs, we get involved and

03:29
assist in taking down the infringer either on Amazon, or sometimes we even need to go to court. Yeah, and I know you have a good pulse on what’s going on in that department of the world. So let me ask you just this just right off the bat. How is the counterfeit problem on Amazon? Is it getting better? Or is it getting worse? Or is about the same? I’d say it’s the infringers are getting a lot more creative on and a lot more educated.

03:58
on how to infringe without raising huge red flags. For example, right now we have a book series that an infringer copied one by one by one by one by one. The moment it was released, the infringer would copy it, et cetera. But they did it in a very smart way that would not kind of raise red flags immediately by fights. For example, tracking service, and it took almost years for the

04:28
party, my client, the party who was infringed on to figure out that was even going on. And so you have some, the cat is out of the box and you have some really interesting case scenarios on infringement. Okay. mean, years, I mean, that sounds expensive. We’ll get into prices in this episode for some of these things, but I wanted to start with, I guess, a mutual friend of ours. She’s a designer, a very creative person.

04:58
And let’s just say that she designs her own art or or cards. She she’s been having a lot of problems on Amazon where someone will just literally copy her exact design and then sell it as their own. And the problem is, is whenever she gets one of them knocked off like five more pop up, how would you fight against something like that? Sure. So the the first and most obvious

05:27
thing is everybody that sells on Amazon has either most likely a good, something that they’re selling, and a marketing plan, and a product development plan, etc., etc., to figure out how someone’s going to buy that product and build their company. And so I always look at it like this should not take up all your time. It shouldn’t even take up most of your time. It shouldn’t take up very much of your time nor money.

05:56
but you need an IP protection strategy from the very get-go. You need to figure out what you have, meaning what is it? it, for example, cards or is it, are you selling machine parts? What are you selling? What are the potential aspects that can get taken or infringed on Amazon or any other e-commerce platform? And then how are you gonna protect that? And so the first step is to always, you know, see, make that

06:26
analysis and we offer free basic analysis of what we need. Almost everyone that sells a product needs a trademark registration because you’re selling a product under it’s a good or service and you need to protect the brand. In this case example, that person had a lot of unique artwork. Well, artwork is number one, it’s in a fixed media and number two, it was original artwork and that could be protected by copyright.

06:54
And if you have registered copyright, it’s easy to get the infringer taken down on Amazon. In this case, she had a lot of different designs, like hundreds and hundreds. She hadn’t filed for formal copyright registration. so we were, in that case, we were behind because we didn’t have an IP strategy. We didn’t have any of these copyrights registered. And so it was impossible to

07:24
go to Amazon and prove a registered copyright. And I can put a placeholder in that because I want to explain why a registration in copyright is important. We also had, in that case, we had an issue that the infringer was coming from Canada. our theory was, and we knew that the paper it was printed on was from China. So the distribution channel that the counterfeiter was using was going from China to Canada, across Canada, because it was coming in through Vancouver.

07:54
to Toronto or Hamilton and across the United States and Buffalo. And so we had some international border issues. Now, again, all that could have, if we would have known, protected early, the price tag, would have gone way down because number one, we would have had the adequate protection. We would have had a labeled for protection. We would notified Amazon that we had protection and it would be easier to take down and not have to go through that nasty customs trace.

08:22
All right, so give me an idea of let’s say I got 100 designs. How much would it cost to register that copyright? Sure. So copyright again is anything that’s a fixed media and creative. reason, and a quick aside, is the reason copyright registration is important is you can’t, there’s no threat. You can claim copyright, but there’s no threat unless you have a registered copyright. You can’t take the infringer to court. And if you

08:51
register it before the infringement happens, you get something called statutory damages. You don’t even have to prove your damages. So it’s very important to do copyright early. you could file, so for a hundred, say we had a hundred cards, you could file a hundred different copyright applications at 60 bucks a pop. And that could be time consuming and laborious. What we do as trained copyright and IP attorneys is we take them, work with the client to group them into groups.

09:21
of in this case we were grouping them into groups of 30 and we were submitting only three applications, three and a half. Why 30 and not 100? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you there’s all these arcane rules about how you can group groups of art to get it through the copyright office. So you don’t want to copy a copyright one by one. You need a just like trademark, just like patent, you need a strategy. And that’s what we’re glad to provide and make it really

09:51
the filings efficient. What’s the difference between grouping them in 30 versus all of them in one group? You can’t because it’s like there’s there’s all these circulars that it’s it’s it’s you need coffee to get through them. OK, we we a while back mapped out like if you have for photography, you can go in groups of 100. I think if you I see if you have groups of artwork, you have to go through groups. If you have groups of books, it’s a different rule, etc, etc. So the idea is to maximize your file.

10:21
and minimize your price. That’s our motto. So we have to map this all out. if we have, for example, if we have one brand, but you have a logo and you have, you know, 800 photographs, know, of the product, et cetera, we want to like really take that, figure out what’s going to get your best bang for the buck and do the minimum we can to maximize that protection. So let’s say I’m an artist and I’m churning out designs literally every day.

10:49
Like am I gonna have to worry about this copyright for every one of those designs or before I sell them or do I? a point. Yeah Steve. Um, no, I mean there’s That’s why you need a strategy You need a complete product review and usually we get that like just send us the stuff and we sit down and figure out what? Which pieces of this are gonna be the most important pieces of intellectual property in the to protect that because

11:18
protecting everything can be very, very costly and not particularly have a good bang for the buck, especially if you’re selling internationally or you’re trying to protect at the source of manufacture, which a lot of times is China, because you’re going to have to file there and you’re going to have to file here. So we take all these factors, have to put them together, and then we come out with a strategy again that’s the most cost efficient and the least expensive. And we kind of map it out for the client so they don’t have to worry about it because these

11:48
Again, I think my philosophy is, and Steve, you know this because you’re like a seminal figure in it. There’s a lot that an e-commerce seller has to do to be successful. Most of it has to do with getting inventory, marketing it the best way they can, keeping their margins, and creating a home run. Protecting intellectual property is not something they should be reading about or, I mean, they should have basic knowledge, but it’s something that we can do professionally.

12:16
at a fraction of the cost that it would if you look at time as money that somebody else could be. Let me ask you this. Let’s say I create 100 designs or let’s say a thousand. I don’t know which ones are going to sell well, but you mentioned earlier that you want to protect it before you start selling it. But let’s say 10,000, 10,000 designs. It’s going to be expensive to protect all those. Right. Well, what do I do then? I have no idea. you have to you have to look at even a large

12:46
I think if you had a greeting card company, that’s kind of an odd example. Usually, you’re going to have common elements in your designs that can be protected. So for example, if every design has a crest in the crest series, every design in that series has a crest, we would only copyright the crest. We wouldn’t copyright the rest of the things. Then you’re seeing the crest in

13:15
So we’re looking for elements that have some commonality in them. then sometimes you can have your watermark element of it protected and it could be kind of a hidden watermark. So the infringer doesn’t even know it is the protected element of the mark. So there’s so many things we can do that are cost effective. What is not cost effective is to not do anything. And then after the infringement happens, try and figure out how to…

13:44
take all this down. So in this person’s case, would you have suggested like an invisible watermark that you would then? Yeah, that what we knew because we group them. The first thing we had to do in that case was the infringement was by one infringer, but a sophisticated infringer. We knew that if we didn’t get the registered copyright, there was nothing we could do. And so we had to group them, you know, in thousands.

14:14
to get protection on the commonalities. And so we did exactly that. So she did in that case have some commonalities in her designs and we grouped them accordingly. ultimately, mean, if you have a greeting card company, we should talk about a specific strategy because you’re changing the design all the time. But adding some commonality to do your designs, we only wanna protect that commonality because we don’t wanna waste money. Right, no, that makes sense. So what about when they figure out

14:43
what that commonality is and they just change that one little thing that doesn’t really affect the design. You mean the infringer? Yes. Yeah. Well, then so we’ve been talking about two things is is the answer is it depends. The one thing is, is if it still looks like yes, copyright infringement really focuses on on the original design. If you see some

15:13
something that could confuse the marketplace. It’s something called trade dress, unfair. It’s called trade dress infringement or unfair trade competition. So if they’re trying to confuse, if we believe they’re trying to confuse the marketplace, we would probably send a cease and desist letter and also work with Amazon to say that their design is so similar that the marketplace is getting confused and they’re trying to do what’s called initial interest confusion, that they’re trying to confuse the market.

15:43
And so that’s how we would threaten both the infringer and use some elements on Amazon on brand registry protection to show that. So assuming that they say no and they’re not afraid of your letter, does that mean you have to litigate at that point or? Well, my strategy and I don’t want to disclose it too much in case you have other lawyers listening now. and it’s not it’s not a it’s not a unusual strategy.

16:12
It’s you have to, the market is not going to police your intellectual property for you. And so if you have a case where you tried a cease and desist letter, you tried working with Amazon, you tried and you have protection and they’re not backing, even if you don’t have protection and they’re not backing down, you have to take baby steps into litigation if it’s

16:42
a positive cost benefit analysis for you. Meaning if it’s like, this is just bothering me, my sales are up to the roof and I can’t tell that they’re for real or not, well, then maybe you just have to be like, there’s a lot of things unfair in this world and maybe I’ll just focus on another thing that’s unfair to me. But if it’s something that’s really economically affecting you, then or you believe it could economically affect you,

17:11
in the future because you want to sell this company, et cetera. And if you show the acquirer that, yeah, I’ve had issues of infringement. Well, what’s been done about nothing? Well, your price of your acquisition is going to go down and they might even walk away. So if you think that none of those are good things that are going to be issued, don’t worry about it. But otherwise, we baby step into litigation. We prepare a complaint, usually in a forum that’s not convenient to them, to the infringer.

17:40
and we send it to them, we send it to their attorney, they usually get an attorney, we try and work it out. We take baby steps, we threaten a preliminary injunction. There’s a lot of baby What if they’re in China? If they’re in China, that’s sometimes the same strategy because they have a nexus to the United States because they’re selling their product in the United States. we also, that can be a cheaper strategy because we have Chinese console.

18:09
They have offices all over that country and they’ll go and knock on the door. They’ll do a literal door knock or a virtual door knock and read them the equivalent of the Chinese riot act. again, China is a huge country, a huge infringer on American intellectual property. It’s a problem. the actual, first of all, China, it’s also a totalitarian state or a

18:39
one party state. And so they listen to, they tend to pay attention to their own laws. And when a Chinese attorney is knocking on the door, they tend to go and find someone else to bother. The other thing that’s important on a Chinese strategy is once you protect the IP in the United States, you also make that evaluation in China, if it’s worth protecting the intellectual property, the trade dress, the trademark, the copyright, and sometimes if you have a unique design, the patent in China.

19:09
Also, there’s international enforcement of trade secrets. So if you’re a Chinese manufacturer your design, I’ve been involved almost three times in the last three months in negotiating intellectual trade secret agreements with Chinese manufacturers. And again, as long as you have a Chinese attorney working with you, you translate it into Mandarin, and it’s a legitimate cross border agreement.

19:37
relatively easy to enforce that agreement. It’s not if you did nothing and you hope that they’re gonna listen to your American legal case. It seems like in this case of greeting cards, it’s probably not gonna be economical to do all that stuff because the designs are just coming out fast and furious, Well, right. And so you’re looking, but in that case, she had a pretty vibrant business in her unique greeting cards.

20:07
And she was losing, at least reported losing market share. she could, and it was, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t easy. And it wasn’t, I mean, it’s not how we would usually like to do it, but it is, it was worthwhile. Um, because of the, two reasons, number one, it was just an obvious over copy. number two is it was a fairly robust business.

20:37
Yeah, it just seems like if you fight back, then that might deter them from doing that again, or maybe copying someone else. well, in that case, too, we had that cross border issue and you can take a federal. There’s ways to notify customs and then customs that they know the name of the infringer.

21:03
And next time that infringer is trying to get something across the board, because they don’t even know that you’re doing this, their name comes up on a manifest, like, this is a known infringer in the United States. But that took some investigative work, because they’re not out there putting a triptych or the MapQuest on how they got it to Buffalo. honestly, I did.

21:33
know, because a lot of stuff from China comes into the ports in Vancouver. And so they were very creative all the way around. And this was coming into the United States, the Buffalo.

21:44
So, and it wasn’t that hard to find, again, we’d be better off if we started early on and said, hey, here’s our basic IP strategy. Let’s see the elements that need to be protected every once in a while, give us a call, do a data dump. We’ll get those additional elements analyzed and really do it strategically, which ends up because everything’s protected to begin with, you see much less infringement. And you also don’t run into like this.

22:13
Oh my God, everyone has to put down whatever they’re doing and focus on this. So Steve, from a non-lawyer perspective, this all sounds kind of intimidating, right? So let’s say I sell greeting cards. What should I have done? I don’t even know if these are going to sell yet. So would you recommend me selling them first? And then as soon as something has traction, then come to you and do. No, think that. So I think the thing to do is so, for example, Steve,

22:43
If you’ve been selling greeting cards for two years and you didn’t do anything, don’t have that you don’t even trademark the name of your product, your brand, cetera, is a very basic IP plan where you look at the hundred or so greeting cards that you have, figure out a very low cost strategy. Like we’re talking 300 to $600, including the filing fees to get that protected, to get your name protected.

23:12
um, your trade name or your trademark, um, one trademark, which is, you know, roughly runs about $1,300, um, including the filing fees, including everything with our total TM. And you’re looking at like a $2,000, such a low effort, such a low budget and rest assured. Um, and then always, if you have a question, um, even if you’re not a client, just call me and run it by me for nothing, because I really want to, it shouldn’t be intimidated.

23:42
But, infringement can happen. And if you don’t have a strategy and you don’t have a plan and you never thought about it until you’re way deep in the water, then it becomes a problem. It’s like, you know, same with taxes, you know, you pay them every year, but, you get them ready around, around now. And so, but if you blew it off for a bunch of years and you, you’re way behind, well, you’re going to take up a lot of accounts time.

24:09
You probably not even have the money to pay the back taxes. It becomes a problem. prevention, mean, it’s more expensive. is so cheap and so easy, especially if you work with console, whereas dealing with infringement isn’t. It’s really, it is very tough. It’s hard enough to get someone that hit you in a car wreck to get that resolved, let alone a piece of intellectual property. So it’s of going to the dentist, right? Getting your It very much.

24:39
I try and make it a lot more pleasant. But you know, my dad was a dentist, anyway, yeah, us waglers seem to enjoy inflicting pain. No, I’m just kidding. right. Let’s, change the scenario a little bit because I know not everyone’s like churning out designs and whatnot. I did have an episode on the podcast. was Kevin Williams. He had this product brush hero. What ended up happening was, and you guys can listen to the episode. I’ll maybe I’ll link to it in the show notes.

25:09
but he had a bunch of Chinese manufacturers literally knock it off, including the box with his picture on it, everything, and sold it under his listing. And every time he got one of them knocked off, a new one popped up and it was like playing a whack-a-mole. How do you prevent that from happening? He had a presumably, I think he had a copyright, but yet he ended up spending like seven figures fighting this. Yeah, so…

25:38
Again, it’s important first you analyze what you got. If you’re selling widgets and you never branded them and you don’t really have it, so there’s no distinct brand, there’s no distinct anything, there’s no distinct design, etc. That’s one scenario. But if you have elements of things that you protected or you could protect, what I’ve learned and this is a change since the last time we talked, Steve, is

26:07
There’s some really powerful AI out there that focuses on Alibaba and AliExpress and the places that these people are selling. If you work with these AI companies and report what intellectual property you have and the potential infringement you’re looking for, they’ll do a series of takedowns much deeper and much more cost efficiently than any human being could ever do.

26:37
And so that’s number one is the easiest and cheapest is, right, you think that you spot infringement that going on. Well, let’s try AI, artificial intelligence strategy, where we work with one of these companies and see what they can get taken down on Alibaba or whatever, AliExpress or whatever the sites that we’re seeing the infringement. Because usually if there’s infringement with the manufacturer and they’re in China,

27:05
Well, they don’t have marketing strategies in the United States. They’re usually doing it, you know, putting it on Ali and then somebody else will not buy it. So that’s number one. Number two is, before you go past number one, how does this AI company work? Like, how do you find them? Sure. What do you need to show them? How much did cost? I’ve vetted them for about two or three years. So I’ve talked to, um, about three or four of them. There’s, there’s a strategy.

27:34
And I’d rather not say their name, but there’s one company that’s willing to do one and done, meaning you subscribe. It’s mostly a subscription service. So they say, Hey, we’ll do this for $900 a month per product. Well, there’s, there’s a few that say, well, you have to sign a long-term agreement, you know, multi-year agreement. that becomes very expensive if you’re policing all the time. Plus we’re talking each one that you choose to monitor and take down.

28:04
is a different cost. So if you want to do it, Amazon, eBay, all of them, it would be very costly. But sometimes you have, I look at this like you sometimes you have to clean the air conditioning vent or something. It’s like, you don’t have to do this all the time. You could do it once a year or when you notice the infringement. And one of these companies is willing to do it on a monthly contract. So that’s what I’m looking for. My assumption is all the AI is relatively comparable.

28:33
for the bigger companies that are doing it. What do need to provide them? We provide them the protectable elements. So a picture of what you used, for example, as a specimen on the, when you filed your trademark, what the product is, what the name of the product is, what protectable elements, and an example of the infringement. And then they’ll program it in their AI and they’ll start doing takedowns

29:03
Um, um, you know, and then those, what to take down? they, do they actually send a letter or what does it a complaint to, to, Allie in Mandarin and, um, that will usually take care of the issue. And the thing is that I learned and why I’m so into this, um, is that a lot of times a client will call me and they’re like, Hey, look at this picture. They they’re seriously knocking me off. like, yeah, that’s terrible. Let’s like,

29:32
let’s do a cease and desist letter, et cetera, et cetera. Well, what we’re seeing as far as the infringement doesn’t go, it goes like waist high. Whereas in other words, we know that there’s infringement out there. We know that it’s on Amazon or eBay or Etsy, whatever. But then we don’t know the depth. We don’t know that multiple, multiple times that this product might be showing up in different iterations because

30:00
Most humans aren’t conditioned that way. Like we can’t, we’d be searching until the cows come home. And so, you sometimes the infringement is much deeper than any Amazon seller knows. And this, this, this products, these products can search that through AI. So they’re policing Alibaba or they policing Amazon or policing. Well, whichever one you want. How much does it cost approximately? Yeah. So I’d say, you know, for a good.

30:29
monitoring service, we’re talking about $1,200 a month per site. Okay, so if your product is doing like tens of thousands of dollars a month, it might be worth it to take these guys out. I mean, in the case of Kevin, with his brush hero,

30:48
It implies that it could have been nipped in the butt at the source, at least to first order with a service like this. Yes. mean, it’s in a… Again, you have to look at the totality of your circumstances. So if you’re a new seller, you see this going on, you have a trademark, for example, and you see it once, well, another strategy is…

31:18
to use and you’re on the brand registry site, well then just file a take down on Seller Central. It’s pretty easy to do on Amazon brand registry and chances are and show your trademark certificate and chances are they’ll take it down. So if it’s super, not superficial, but if it’s not like a huge problem in your small seller, take it down. Again, I don’t.

31:47
It’s kind of a specialized area of law for sure. so you’re, you’re, and I’ve always told you this, Steve is like any of your clients that are people that listen to you are free to call me. I don’t charge for this type of stuff to tell you what my opinion is on, on the easiest and fastest way to take it down. But a lot of times you’re, looking at kind of like, well, what is, if it’s, if it’s a huge deal, like this is a Chinese manufacturer that leaked your unique product.

32:16
design on the web and is selling it as a one-off, well, that’s a big problem. If you’re talking about somebody that is just was looking to make a buck and came up with an iteration of yours and is up there and that’s all we can find, that’s it. That’s another much easier problem to deal with. And that sometimes involves like I’ll write a letter, know, takes half hour of my time.

32:45
write a letter saying, you know, knock it off. And a lot of times I’ll call and say, you know, beg for mercy. So it just depends on what the nature of the infringement is. It’s very difficult to do any of this if you didn’t get the brand, you didn’t get the, if you have copyrightable material, you didn’t get the copyright. Or if you’re one of these unique individuals or unique companies that has a patentable design or something that fits that box.

33:14
that you’re showing that. All right, Steve, a common question I get asked is I have like an invention or something relatively new that I need made and I want to get it made in China because it’s more economical. How do I prevent or what steps should I take to prevent that manufacturer from selling it to anyone else or just even copying the design outright for their own?

33:37
Well, you have to look at your product and say, what are the protectable elements? So in this case, the protectable elements, if it’s some unique product and you haven’t gone to market yet, the unique, because you’re hiring a manufacturer, the unique elements might be a design pad, the way the product is designed. Like for example, the Apple iPods are a design pad. They’re designed so unique that you look at them and you know,

34:06
wow, that’s unique design. And then something like the Louis Vuitton bags, if everyone could picture the LV and the brown bag, that’s called trade dress because it’s not that the bag is unique. The bag usually looks like any other bag. It’s the trade dress, it’s the thing around it. The LVs and the alligator stuff look is called trade dress. So you have to get that protected.

34:34
and in the United States. then it’s suggested to get, and this is all very low cost, suggested to get it protected in China. And you can take the American application, move it over to China. And then you would do one of two things. You would either do a door knock, have a Chinese console do a door knock and say, hey, you’re gripping off protected stuff. No, no, no, they haven’t ripped it off yet. You’re just worried that it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be, that would be number one is you just, even if, even if you’re not worried, protect your stuff.

35:04
have an analysis of protection. The second thing is, if you’re working with a manufacturer and it’s a big enough order, you need to look at those terms because sometimes the terms which they might send you in Mandarin allow them to do that. And so you have to pay attention to the terms of the contract. And one thing you can add is in the contract, or if you even have one, is that they’re not gonna do that. And so I’ve been involved a lot lately

35:33
on doing Chinese American contract review. And so it’s very cheap because a lot of times it’s like, I’m manufacturing for this price, this price, et cetera. The terms are usually normal, but there’s these terms of intellectual property, which is, one or two paragraphs of the contract that no one’s ever reading. So if they have a contractual right to take it, well, you have no rights to be concerned about it. And so you really have to look at what your terms are with the Chinese provider.

36:02
The third thing is, and I used to say, go and break bread with your Chinese manufacturer, like go over there. It’s very hard now to do that, but it is not that hard to still develop a relationship. Asian cultures in Asia are very relational based, and it’s important to build that relationship and that trust, just like you wouldn’t write a check for 300,000 or whatever your order is to anyone else.

36:31
So, you know, it’s very important to build that trust element. So those things combined, protect it, look at your contract terms and build a meaningful relationship with someone that, long-term relationship, someone that you’re thinking about working with are the important elements. Sure, that’s fine and good. But so you want to protect in the US, we already kind of talked about that, right? Trademark plus maybe copyright. What about the, what do I tell the manufacturer? Don’t do this. For what their manufacturer,

37:01
terms are, see if they have any and look for that if there’s any intellectual property terms in the contract, if it’s a big enough order, insist on them that you hold intellectual property and here’s the intellectual property that you have. so fine, let’s say I do that and then they start selling to somebody else. How much does it cost for me to go after this or can that be automated or cheaper to enforce?

37:30
When you’re at that point and you’re in good shape, and then we would work with a Chinese console. And again, I worked with the same console all the time that would write them a letter in Mandarin or door knock, like literally go and knock on their door. usually they would see that you built this fence and they would either go away or you don’t want them to go away.

37:59
they’d stop doing what they’re supposed to that they’re doing. the situations in China usually go like this. And again, I’m not trying to be like I don’t, I’ve not had like hundreds, but it usually is. Well, no, that’s my brother’s company. That’s doing that. I don’t know how my brother got it, but I’ll talk to my brother and that will stop.

38:21
How much does it cost to do this part of it? It’s usually like about, that’s usually about a $3,000 project. That’s $3,000. Okay. Do you have someone knock on the door? Yeah, I mean, literally, because at that point you have the wall is built. You’re protected, you’re protected contractually, you’re protected and you’re protected through, you know, trademark trade secret copyright and or Pat.

38:48
Sorry, one thing I wanted to mention, the trademark and the copyright, does that have to be filed in China also in order for this protection to take place or just in the US is sufficient? Each one has its own different rules, but the patent and trademark should be filed in both. In both, okay. Yeah. But it’s very low cost to move an American trademark over to China. Low cost, meaning like a few thousand dollars or less? Less.

39:17
About a thousand dollars. a thousand. Okay. All right. That doesn’t sound… So, know, it’s like, here’s how I look at a lot of this. It’s like, each little step is a thousand dollars, a thousand dollars, a thousand dollars. It really rarely varies from that. Okay. I know you’ve been involved in some litigation, which you probably can’t discuss in detail, but I just want to get an idea of what’s been going on in your world and what you’re fighting. What are some of the battles that actually make it to litigation?

39:45
that’s what scares me the most. Once you get into litigation, it’s expensive, right? It’s expensive and it’s really hard to predict and the courts are really backlogged. And so we were talking a little bit about this before the show. So the way I look at intellectual property protection is you got to build some kind of barrier or some kind of wall to protect. And then if they don’t, you know, but no one’s taking a gun to their head and making them adhere to your

40:15
your wall. And so they can still try and scale your wall, even if it’s huge. And so sometimes they do. sometimes you have to. So the idea is to if you’re not getting any compliance by sending them the trademark certificate, whatever, and a cease and desist letter, you have to ratchet it up a little bit where you threaten to sue or you sue. When you sue, usually both parties are trying to resolve it very quickly.

40:45
Because the infringer generally is not a huge company, and they’re not going to have the resources to defend against a well-built fence, especially. And so generally, we’re going to get it into dispute resolution within, meaning mediation or something. The judge is going to demand it within 30 to 60 days. If right now the cases I have are all

41:14
clear cases of infringement, but some of the stuff is not easy to explain the protection. It’s a lot like the case we were talking about before, Steve, where we have like greeting cards and they changed its books, but they changed the, a little bit of the look and feel, but they would advertise the same book, basically the moment our guys would advertise. And to make it worse, they were, the infringer was the printer.

41:41
So these guys brought the books to the printer and the printer was ripping them off the whole time. So in that type of case, it doesn’t seem to review resalving too quickly. And it can be, so far we’re at least $20,000 into it. And I don’t see this resalving for another month or two at least. And we’re looking, because the judge has to decide a motion.

42:08
And so we’re looking at probably 50, $60,000. But the alternative is to either, at that point you either have to walk away and say, this isn’t worth it to me because I can do something else with my life and I’m just going to take this as a business loss or you really have no choice. It’s like the infringer is infringing on everything you’re doing and thinks that they have a right to do it. And so it’s an unfortunate situation to be in. We always try and…

42:38
There’s two sayings in any kind of litigation. Never act scared. So if you have an attorney that’s really super cautious, that’s not usually a trait that we look for. And number two is sometimes you have to do that cost benefit analysis. Maybe it was a $5 million play that ultimately is going to be a $4.5 million play because you have to get rid of these people. So yes, it’s scary. But again, I think a lot of your clients

43:07
I’m sorry, a lot of your listeners and a lot of my clients are looking at e-commerce as a growth industry and ultimately selling, being able to have the company acquired. If you have infringement going on and you didn’t do anything about it, well, when it comes time for an ad due diligence merger, acquisition due diligence, they’re not going to be happy that there’s infringers out there and that you didn’t do anything about it. And so sometimes it’s very much

43:37
It’s not my favorite call to have, it’s a litigation call, but sometimes it’s part of business and it has to be a business decision. I’m pretty confident that 98.8 % of your listeners are not gonna be in that situation. Can we just talk about some of the timeframes? Sure. How long does it take to register a copyright, get the trademark, the basic protections of you? Sure. So keeping in mind that the rights issue at the time you create them,

44:06
And same with the trademark at the time you claim the use of trademark and commerce. takes the registration process in both of them is taking about a year. That’s why it’s a really important to have a good strategy, including like a search, especially for trademark upfront, because we know the process is taking a year. We want to make sure that it makes it through, that you really do have legitimate trademark copyright. And so we’re going to do a thorough search at the beginning of the process.

44:36
that kind of gets in the minds and the heads of the USPTO examining attorneys to make sure that really you’re never going to get delayed. Never say never, but rarely get delayed because we really have thought it out long before they’re even going to look at it. Because you don’t want that one year to be two years or three years or even worse. Like you file a terrible application or application that’s not going to make it through. And then your year later, you have the product out in market, your sales have doubled and you have a trademark.

45:06
How long does it take to knock on like a Chinese manufacturer’s door? That can be very quick. Yeah, very. So it’s getting that cut. They’re much it’s much quicker. China’s very quick. And I don’t know, like 24, seven months or well, assuming that the protections in place are the filing for the protections in place. We’re talking minutes, not minutes, days.

45:36
Really? So if that’s the case, then it’s totally worth it. I like the strategy. I do. I it’s always I just can’t think of a time it hasn’t worked for us for my clients. But what about the AI stuff? Are they pretty quick? There? Yeah. So that again, it’s kind of like a sign up for a monthly as soon as you work with the rep to get it programmed. It’s instantaneous that they’re going to start the process of the scrub.

46:06
And then they’ll give you a report. that seems to me. me of this service that always gets pitched to me. So I run a course and of course there’s piracy of the course and there’s a service that offers to take down all the people who are selling the knockoffs, so to speak. It’s the same thing, same principle. I always wonder where the company that’s preventing the knockoffs are the guys who are generating the knockoffs in the first place. Yeah. It’s a, know,

46:35
I gave it no credence at the beginning, but then when I saw like, sat through a presentation on the depth of the infringement is rarely going to be what we notice or the client. Like no one necessarily can go in and figure that all out. So you need, and then I found this company that will do it, you know, again, sign up for a month, cancel, a year later, sign up for a month. You know, it’s really like,

47:04
That sounds cost effective to me. Sitting on a multi-year contract with them that you can’t get out of, and you’re not sure if there’s even a lot of infringement, that sounds like a dog. Right. Okay. Interesting. at least with this episode- And keep in mind, I have no affiliation with these companies. Sure. Of course. I’m feeling a little bit more comfortable, like if I had like some invention that if I took the proper precautions,

47:34
I could take down someone in China, assuming I have the protections in place, for relatively low costs, like in the thousands of dollars. Is that all accurate? You’d have a good shot. Good shot, right? Okay. think the infringers are not used to that happening. They’re not used to a Chinese attorney being involved and they’re looking for low hanging fruit. And if you’re not it, there’s thousands of others that didn’t use that strategy.

48:02
Because the general thought, at least in the community here, is that there is no policing that takes place in China. See, and I just, I can get where people would think that, and certainly the newspapers and the reporting about Amazon, you know, that’s, I wouldn’t say encouraging it, but they’re not, there’s some participation. I can see how that could be, but China has,

48:32
They pride themselves on a pretty strict intellectual privacy, intellectual property policy and their courts, you you don’t want to be in trouble in China. I certainly know is a, it’s a pretty strict court system and it’s pretty regimented. And so, but no one ever looks at it like, well, they’re not going to enforce American law, but they’ll enforce our own. you’ve successfully gotten some of these. mean, okay. More than more than.

49:02
the fingers on my hand. Right. And what is your hit rate? It’s been, I mean, you know, I can’t say that every resolution has been the same, but it’s been outstanding. Okay. You know, because it’s like, the theory is, is, and, know, maybe combine it with do your own Alibaba take down, you know, but the, the, um, having the, putting the ammunition in the Chinese consul’s hands.

49:30
meaning getting the Chinese copyright or the Chinese trademark or whatever, and then having them quickly implement through letter writing or even better knocking on the door and do it really quickly, tends to throw the imprinter off. They can’t even believe that that happened. And they know, you know, if someone enforced in China, there are serious penalties to pay. There is no doubt about that. Probably more serious than here. Well, that’s good to know, Steve.

49:58
Yeah, it’s really interesting. And again, we’re not Chinese counsel. I’m constantly going to conferences and things. met the Chinese counsel I used. I met, she was part of the largest, I think the largest Chinese law firm. And then they split off. And so it’s been really nice because it’s probably 20, 30 attorneys, but it’s very customized service. She lives in San Francisco. She speaks English. So it’s good.

50:29
So if anyone is worried about any of stuff, where can they get ahold of you? You mentioned you’d talk to them, right? Just. Yeah, absolutely. Just schedule. The easiest thing to do is either email me at S Yler W E I G L E R at emerge E M E R G E console. C O U N S E L dot com. Or look at our website. There’s a scheduling link. It says free consultation.

50:56
If it’s a matter of just referring you to Chinese Consul, glad to do that. And they offer free consoles too. So, you we tend to discharge for the work and we want to, my goal is to build meaningful relationships and help companies grow in the e-commerce space. I love when one of my clients gets to merger and acquisition. I love it. In fact, that’s my, the rest of my day is going through an M &A deal and I’m so excited about it. They’re going to make a lot of money. I wish I would make that money, but anyway, it’s not what I chose to do. Cool.

51:25
Well, Steve, hey, thanks a lot for coming back on. Sure. Always good to see you, Steve. see you virtually.

51:33
Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now, I hate counterfeiters and the copycats, and the thought of investing any money to fight them just makes me angry. But fortunately, there’s some relatively low-cost ways to fight the bad guys. For more information about this episode, go to mywifequitterjob.com slash episode 402. And once again, I want to thank Post Group, which is my SMS marketing platform of choice for e-commerce. With a few clicks of a button, you can easily segment and send targeted text messages to your client base. SMS is an ex-bake-owned marketing platform, and you can sign up for free.

52:02
over at postscript.io slash Steve. That’s P-O-S-T-S-U-I-P-T dot I-O slash Steve. I also want to thank Clivio, which is my email marketing platform of choice for eCommerce merchants. You can easily put together automated flows like an abandoned card sequence, a post purchase flow, a win back campaign, basically all these sequences that will make you money on autopilot. So head on over to mywifecoupterjob.com slash K-L-A-V-I-Y-O. Once again, that’s mywifecoupterjob.com slash K-L-A-V-I-Y-O. Now we talk about how I these tools in my blog,

52:32
If you are interested in starting your own ecommerce store, head on over to mywifecoderjob.com and sign up for my free 6-day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.